On 11/27/07, Rene B <rb2.net@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it.

This may be closer to the truth unfortunately. As greater benefits from tools come as you get more proficient in using them with time.

I'm interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it's impossible to select a tool. I've researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don't want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's

Stick to Zope 2 with DTML if that serves your purpose. It will serve you well. I think your problem is solved !!!

easy. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic

See above. There is no real need for you to go to the latest stuff. You may go there naturally when it will be best.

portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah.

This is quite true that ZPT helps in such situations. It was designed with this objective. "Nobody seems to be adding to zope 2" because the gurus have learnt some lessons from Zope2 and are hence developing something new from scratch (Zope 3). The principle remains: Find the best tool for your needs. HTH

Hello, If you do not have time to program, and you want to build dynamic web sites, maybe you could use Zope2 with Plone, and just use the existing Plone products. Ok, you think "Plone is tooo much", but it should cover 99% of any basic dynamic web site features. Regards, Eric BREHAULT On Nov 27, 2007 2:18 AM, Rene B <rb2.net@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I've researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I've also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that's all I've used. I've written a few scripts . I'm interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it's impossible to select a tool. I've researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don't want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's easy. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah.

I'm afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it's going in. Not to mention I don't particularly like ZPT. I've read DTML isn't going anywhere but I don't imagine I'll get much support on it when needed and I'm sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok's new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was "use the one that you like". So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I've seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular. The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don't know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question. Grok looks to me like another CherryPy. It may be easier the Zope 3 but it's not easier then Zope 2. Plus I've yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play. I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can't find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. There aren't any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven't been touched for years. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn't find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it's going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me.

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Hey, On Nov 27, 2007 2:18 AM, Rene B <rb2.net@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I've researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I've also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah.

I can see how that would be frustrating; there are indeed many of them out there and the Zope situation is currently rather muddled with a lot of choices and not much clarity which one to pick...

I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that's all I've used. I've written a few scripts . I'm interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it's impossible to select a tool. I've researched all the tools mentioned above.

There's one important question that might help guide you towards choosing the right framework for you: what kind of thing do you typically want your dynamic websites to do? You say below they're relatively simple websites and there'd be just you working on them typically. Do you use relational databases a lot?

The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don't want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's easy.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about this. As someone helping to build a framework (Grok), it'd be really interesting to know more about what attracts you to Zope 2. Did you learn DTML through a tutorial? If so, may I ask which? I'd like to know what gave you the impression that it was easy and fun to work with.

I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah.

As someone who used DTML quite a lot back in '99 - '01 or so, I'd say DTML is a new language that isn't that close to Python either. While I certainly don't despise the language, it was quite frustrating to use sometimes because it wasn't enough like Python and trying to make it be that way made it look very complicated.

I'm afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it's going in. Not to mention I don't particularly like ZPT. I've read DTML isn't going anywhere but I don't imagine I'll get much support on it when needed and I'm sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead.

Yes, that is indeed a risk, I'm afraid. You touch an important point. Where is Zope 2 going? In general, the answer tends to be more use of Zope 3 technologies. That isn't a very satisfactory answer for you though, as Zope 3 technologies are most likely not going to make your life more easy. Eventually it may mean "more Grok technologies" too, but that may not be very helpful to you either, as you already prefer Zope 2 to Grok. May I ask, is the presence of the ZMI a contributing factor in Zope 2's appeal? The fact that you can go in and create a DTML method or Python script in your web browser without any file system setup? Or would this not matter to you if you could just as easily work with these on the file system?

Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok's new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was "use the one that you like". So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose.

I'm not quite sure whether the bottom line for template languages is "use the one you like": a common one will be a benefit for any web framework as it will make it easier to talk to other developers, exchange code, and so on. That said, I also believe a web framework should allow the use of other languages; it needs to evolve after all and people need to be able to experiment. Zope 2 is a good example, as by now most people use ZPT while DTML was dominant 7 years ago. Allowing an extra template language in Zope 2 made that possible. I think it would be a nice project for someone to make DTML work with Grok as a template language plugin.

Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard.

That is interesting as well; may I ask why you thought Django was too hard, compared to Zope 2?

I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I've seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular.

mod_python is certainly a framework that isn't going to go away. It's low-level though, so it most likely doesn't support a community very well suited towards beginners or scripters.

The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don't know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question.

Not really very appealing for beginners, huh?

Grok looks to me like another CherryPy.

It would be interesting to hear how you see this similarity. CherryPy is more a programmable web server, closer to mod_python, than Grok is. CherryPy by itself doesn't deal with storing information, which Grok does do using the object database. Or form generation, for instance.

It may be easier the Zope 3 but it's not easier then Zope 2.

I'd be interesting to find out more about what in it looked harder for you than Zope 2.

Plus I've yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play.

We'd be interested to find out what's blocking that! We do our best to support Grok on Windows XP. I have various customers who need to use it on this platform. One problem I noticed is that it refuses to work if you install it in any location which has a space character in the path like "My Document", so make sure it isn't in a subdirectory of such a directory.

I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2.

What kind of auto-generated content appeals to you in particular in Zope 2?

Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can't find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much.

I can definitely see how Plone is too much. Anyway, Plone isn't primarily a development framework, it's primarily a content management system that you can plug into. One typically shouldn't be trying to use it as a development framework for other applications as that's a way to get very frustrated indeed.

There aren't any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven't been touched for years.

I think that's unfortunately more true than we'd like it do be. That said, there are quite a few products that do get updated fairly regularly, but that's certainly not easy to find out.

Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn't find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most.

Zope 2 is moving forward in many ways. One way I already mentioned is the addition of Zope 3 technology, which is less relevant or appealing to you. Another project to move Zope 2 into the modern age is repoze.org, but that is very deployment oriented and I'd say WSGI isn't really what you're looking for either.

If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it's going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me.

That certainly makes sense. I think Zope 2 used to be very appealing especially as there were lots of add-ons and lots of activity in those add-ons. Most of the add-on writing has moved to Zope 3, but these add-ons are of a very different nature and generally not very useful towards beginners or scripters. A lot of add-ons also get written for Plone, but those are more CMS-functionality plugins or overrides, so that isn't very useful either. My own effort to make Zope more approachable focuses on Grok, so you'll have noticed I asked Grok-oriented questions. I'd be very interesting to discuss how we can make Grok appear more appealing to people like you. That's for instance why I asked whether the ZMI is an essential reason for you to be attracted to Zope 2. DTML and the availability of a rich ecosystem of plugins is already clear, and I'll have to think about those both in the context of Grok. I'll note that Zope 2 isn't going away in a hurry as a system: there is a lot of activity surrounding it, though unfortunately not primarily in the areas that attract you, and I think that could indeed be a problem for you. It's difficult for a community where many people became more hard-core developers to cater for the need of beginners and people approaching development in a less hard-core way, as open source is often about scratching your own itch. I also think it's essential for a community to get new beginners, as their perspective can help simplify life for everybody, and some of the beginners will grow into very valuable contributors. I think the Zope community has been in the position of growing beyond a beginner audience for too long, and I think this has to change if we want to be able to grow further as a community. I'd like to thank you very much for taking the time and expressing your concerns - many people go away without discussing things after evaluation, and it takes time to write this down. This kind of feedback is invaluable and is already an important contribution. I hope you are willing to continue the dialog. I can't promise to do anything more about your concerns than to listen and think about them, but that's how any effort to improve the situation will have to begin. The community needs to listen to this stuff if we want to attract developers like you. I think we do want to. Regards, Martijn

I've been using Zope 2 since 2000 and like it a lot, but I think your concerns are very valid. I don't fully understand why the Zope 2 (and Zope 3) community seems so much less vibrant than it used to be, but am aware of several well-known possible factors, in particular the Zope2 vs Zope3 schism, the state of the zope.org web site, and the wide set of competing alternatives. That said, Zope is very rich and, in my opinion, very mature. I have used Zope 2 too extensively to give it up. I use it for several sites. I don't see anything I like better, but have a nagging worry that Zope, and especially Zope 2, may become increasingly neglected as time goes by. I hope I am wrong, but it is definitely something to be concerned about. All in all, I'd still recommend Zope 2 and, in fact, hope for all of sake of us all that lots of other people continue to make this choice. Note that even COBOL and the Amiga, the most obsolete technologies I can think of readily, still have developer communities, so even the worst-case scenarios won't imply a sudden Zope termination. Personally, I find DTML a moderately ugly language, but very effective and easy to get in to. I use it often, but typically only in limited amounts per page. When the going gets rough and complicated you should think about using a Python scripts and resist the temptation of getting into hairy DTML tricks. DTML in Zope is like salt: it is necessary to life, very tempting and seductive, but can have bad consequences when used to excess. Somebody asked about what things make Zope so appealing and without re-listing the whole feature set, the combination of the ZMI and the very simple and robust through-the-web stuff, the wide selection of both powerful and quick-to-use script and template solutions, and a good selection of plugin products are the top features. Cheetah and Zope sounds like an obvious combination. I am surprised it hasn't been done yet and will be shocked it if isn't implemented by somebody within another month or two. One issue is that Cheetah has the non-XML ugliness of DTML without really big advantages in terms of functionality (even though it looks clean), and it would further fragment the community and set of options. Splitting a community is a really dangerous idea. Even Zope plus PHP might be a safer choice for the resulting sub-community (note I am holding my nose as I type this). I've used Plone a fair bit, but find it too heavy for many simple applications, even though it has some really great features. (Heavy in various ways.) The Plone 2 vs Plone 3 migration just makes it more complicated. Greg http://www.dudek.org/blog On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote:

I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah.... .... I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when needed and I’m sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. ... I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much.

Rene B wrote:

I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also

Perhaps web.py can interest you then? Its not very much of framework (you actually write everything in Python, even making your own architectural decisions, and template language resembles Python also), but it requires almost no learning and dynamic site can be setup in no time. And webpy is not too hard as it is very minimalistic, so enjoy writing Python most of the time instead of working around some framework's peculiarities. Maybe after at least playing with that you will revisit other Python web application frameworks already knowing what you want. Regards, Roman Susi

looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I’m beginning to think there’s nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I’m a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used. I’ve written a few scripts . I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it’s impossible to select a tool. I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I’ve researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It’s easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it doesn’t come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I’d be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah.

I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when needed and I’m sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was "use the one that you like". So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular. The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don’t know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question. Grok looks to me like another CherryPy. It may be easier the Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play. I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven’t been touched for years. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me.

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