-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - From reading: your database model appears pretty much relational. Where would you take advantages from using Zope as framework? This sounds like a task for Pyramid + RDBMS or a graph DB. - -aj Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:

I have a personal project - a web application I wanted to develop - but I'm confused on which route to take. I am not under any time constraint.

*About the App:*

The best I can describe it is as a kind of expert system (but not AI) that needs to find the best workflow for a process, given a set of initial and final parameters. E.g. a 'capsule' of data must pass through many 'tools' or 'environments' to reach a desired output - something like a very complicated car wash.

Let's say there are many tools that can be used at various stages in the process. I have estimated there are at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version updates.

Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the tool. Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties. Some of these tools are linked to each other - e.g if one tool is selected, there are only n tools that can correspond to it for the next step in the process. I also have the problem of 'matching' the tools for analysis. E.g. Tool A might have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000. I'm not sure how I can construct a database without spelling out each number, as in the example above.

The total number of tools needed for the process can be defined at the beginning, however, it will change as the application becomes more complex in the future. I plan to address every contingency in the process. The idea is - if the user inputs the initial parameters and the desired outcome (another set of parameters), the app must find the 'best' path - sort of like a decision tree. The best path can be the fastest, cheapest, etc. I would like the user to choose what is best for him/her.

Unfortunately, parameters might change, relationships might change (but not regularly) - the 'rules' I will be using might be revised for better accuracy in prediction.

I also need to track each user's path and solutions' for future reference (but no personal details except username and email address for logging in). Maybe when the app is up and running, I'd like to make it more democratic, with users contributing to refining the logic/rules involved.

If possible, I would also like the app to output a graphical flowchart at the end showing the workflow with all tools grouped in an easy to understand layout.

*My questions:*

1. Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB. But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit? 2. Can anyone provide general advice on how to go about beginning such a project in ZOPE. Which is the best place to start learning for a newbie? 3. Can anyone recommend a good shared hosting provider that supports Zope fully but is not expensive? 4. Is there a module or app that is open source that I can use to output a graphical flowchart based on the results, or will I be better served programming it from scratch with Python?

I would appreciate any help in getting started. Thank you in advance. I have tried most online forums but have not good any productive answers. Most of the answers I got were pro-PHP+mySQL.

Adam

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Aloha, Very briefly, from what you describe, it looks like you are dealing with large numbers of complex objects (your 'tools') that interact with each other - and with some other elements that are going through this workflow process? And a context for the process? ...not sure of that part... In any case, this looks (to me anyhow) like a very object-oriented system you are modeling so an object oriented approach and language would seem most suitable. Python is one reasonable language option; zope for the web publishing aspect of the project would fit well with that. I haven't worked with other OO languages enough to usefully compare. It also sounds to me like the web publishing is the lesser part of this...? That is, the workflow of interacting tools is the real 'app' here, a process which does not all get shown somehow on a web page...or does it? Or just the outcomes? LAMP platform is so common and cheap that it's all a lot of people know about. It can be used well, and, it is all too easy to make horrible hacks and Frankestein monster apps in PHP/MySQL. Meaning, a highly structured (yet powerful) OO programming language will support you in avoiding that. Also, for development (or just to explore if python+zope might meet your needs) you don't need any hosting, you can install python+zope on your development system and try it out. best wishes... John S. On 12/03/2011 07:12 PM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote:

I have a personal project - a web application I wanted to develop - but I'm confused on which route to take. I am not under any time constraint.

*About the App:*

The best I can describe it is as a kind of expert system (but not AI) that needs to find the best workflow for a process, given a set of initial and final parameters. E.g. a 'capsule' of data must pass through many 'tools' or 'environments' to reach a desired output - something like a very complicated car wash.

Let's say there are many tools that can be used at various stages in the process. I have estimated there are at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version updates.

Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the tool. Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties. Some of these tools are linked to each other - e.g if one tool is selected, there are only n tools that can correspond to it for the next step in the process. I also have the problem of 'matching' the tools for analysis. E.g. Tool A might have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000. I'm not sure how I can construct a database without spelling out each number, as in the example above.

The total number of tools needed for the process can be defined at the beginning, however, it will change as the application becomes more complex in the future. I plan to address every contingency in the process. The idea is - if the user inputs the initial parameters and the desired outcome (another set of parameters), the app must find the 'best' path - sort of like a decision tree. The best path can be the fastest, cheapest, etc. I would like the user to choose what is best for him/her.

Unfortunately, parameters might change, relationships might change (but not regularly) - the 'rules' I will be using might be revised for better accuracy in prediction.

I also need to track each user's path and solutions' for future reference (but no personal details except username and email address for logging in). Maybe when the app is up and running, I'd like to make it more democratic, with users contributing to refining the logic/rules involved.

If possible, I would also like the app to output a graphical flowchart at the end showing the workflow with all tools grouped in an easy to understand layout.

*My questions:*

1. Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB. But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit? 2. Can anyone provide general advice on how to go about beginning such a project in ZOPE. Which is the best place to start learning for a newbie? 3. Can anyone recommend a good shared hosting provider that supports Zope fully but is not expensive? 4. Is there a module or app that is open source that I can use to output a graphical flowchart based on the results, or will I be better served programming it from scratch with Python?

I would appreciate any help in getting started. Thank you in advance. I have tried most online forums but have not good any productive answers. Most of the answers I got were pro-PHP+mySQL.

Adam

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-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 06:12, Sareesh Sudhakaran <aysand@hotmail.com> wrote:

I have a personal project - a web application I wanted to develop - but I'm confused on which route to take. I am not under any time constraint.

Your case is complex and the answer is non-obvious. I think you will have to try to see.

The best I can describe it is as a kind of expert system (but not AI) that needs to find the best workflow for a process, given a set of initial and final parameters. E.g. a 'capsule' of data must pass through many 'tools' or 'environments' to reach a desired output - something like a very complicated car wash.

Let's say there are many tools that can be used at various stages in the process. I have estimated there are at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version updates.

Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the tool.

This kind of complexity and flexibility that your case has does lend itself well to the ZODB. But it is by no means impossible to do in a relational database. What you would need to do here if you did this in SQL is to have one table for the tools, and one table for the properties, and one table that for each tool and property has a value. This might be a bit complex to use of you use an ORM, but it should be doable.

problem of 'matching' the tools for analysis. E.g. Tool A might have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000. I'm not sure how I can construct a database without spelling out each number, as in the example above.

Well, if you want to search for a specific RPM range it does get complicated, because then you probably want to store the RPM values as integers. And that means that you in the property table needs to have several columns depending on the value type. If the property needs text, you need to fetch it from the text column. If the property is an integer you need to fetch it from the integer column. If the property is a reference to another table, because it is a multi-select property with a limited set, you need to fetch it from a column for that, which in turn refers to another table with the actual values. This *does* get very complex very quickly. Of course, the ZODB has few such problems.

Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB. But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit?

First of all, find yourself a web-framework you like. Then use that. Most likely, that framework is going to limit you to using SQL. There are frameworks that don't specifically Pyramid integrates nicely with ZODB and hence gives you a choice. Then I would simply try to see if you are able to model the data in SQL at all, or if you dig yourself into unholy complexity. That should not take more than a couple of days of work to figure that out, if you concentrate on building a database and filling it with real or realistic data. If you don't dig yourself into a hole, the go with SQL, since that's what you know. If you do, try to build the model with ZODB and see of that works better for you. The ZODB might very well be the right choice here. But note that Zope is not. Zope was a trailblazer in the web framework world that's been around for 15 years now, and has as a result made some choices which turned out to not be the best ones in the long run, and accumulated a lot of cruft. There is work on fixing this, but that will take time, and the framework will be in a great flux during that time. As a result, Zope is not currently a good choice if you start a project. As languages go, Python rules. As web frameworks go, there are more Python frameworks than you can shake a stick at. I'd recommend either Django (because there are so many people using it, you will be able to find help ) or Pyramid (because it's really cool and supports ZODB well). //Lennart