I am an experienced software developer, looking for a content management system for clients that do not have one and cannot afford the big guns. I started looking at Zope seriously Friday, and signed up for the mailing list. The very first thread I explored was the long, bitter stream of replies to "Disgraceful." I've been around long enough to know that this thread is probably not representative of the entire Zope community. But, if the Zope development/support community members want their product to be a long-term viable option, patience with new users -- including even lazy or stupid new users -- is going to be a part of that. I only say this because I've seen good software whither and die, despite the intentions, dedication, and competence of the developers. I'd like to see Zope continue to succeed. What I've seen of Zope in action so far is pretty impressive. The Zope book is also impressive, but still obviously a work in progress. There aren't a lot of on-the-shelf books with recent publication dates, so help here is vital for new users. I understand and sympathize completely with the frustrations of dealing with users who have not read the manual, who have "forgotten" how to do something, whatever. I have gotten an email from a vice-president of special projects asking for a CD of the Internet. But the answer isn't anger; I've learned my knuckles aren't harder than the monitor. Perhaps a newbies list would help, as suggested below. Maybe more of us should help with documentation, and with answering questions. But public humiliation is a self-defeating strategy; it hinders progress for all. I'll stop now, because I feel a political rant coming on..... -----Original Message----- From: Sophia Grimm [mailto:sophiagrimm@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 1:20 PM To: Tiller, Michael (M.M.); Michael R. Bernstein; zope@zope.org Subject: RE: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful Hmmm... Couple of comments about etiquette and documentation... I'm a newbie programmer (not just a newbie to zope), and I usually spend hours researching any topic before I ever ask a question. That said, I find the zope and plone web sites unhelpful to the extreme. I've read the zope book through, as well as other zope manuals, but I usually need practical examples. When I google search for help, I don't always know what to look for, or what I try to look for is not what I find. That doesn't mean that the writers aren't doing a great job -- you are! But not everyone has good search skills, and not everyone will know how to interpret and apply what is written. A newbies list would serve one terrific purpose: Anyone who is on the list to answer questions -- presumably the same people who do it now, like Dieter and Andreas -- would understand that the subscribers will include people like me, who try our best and still need a lot of support. Anyone who doesn't want to deal with that can choose not to subscribe or answer. Unfortunately, there will always be an oversupply of people with questions and far too few to answer. For those who do support us, we hope you know that we appreciate what you do. Please be patient with us! All that aside, email is a horrible medium for communication. What you write can be interpreted so many ways, depending on language, culture, and individual perception. So it's not necessary to use rude words to come across that way. I'm sure that (except possibly within the current thread) no one *meant* to be rude. BTW, I intended this email to be a friendly =-) commentary. --- "Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com> wrote:

...

From: zope-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-bounces@zope.org] On Behalf Of Subject: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful

The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the sixth result here: http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions

Really? For me, this is the sixth result:

http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/resetting_zopes_session_timeout

.html

I'm assuming that is not what you meant.

Interestingly, I couldn't find the Zope book in the first six *PAGES* of results. Perhaps Google gives you a different result than me for some reason, but I entered it just like you typed it.

The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.

...

I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?

By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like:

Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people seem rude or stupid even when they're not.

Reply to a first offender off-line. There is no need of public humiliation for someone who may have made an honest mistake. A real newbie may not know how to search archives or where the FAQ is stored or posted.

If you can't help, don't hinder.

Ask probing questions to elicit more details.

While just muttering RTFM is sometimes justified when replying to someone who is just a lazy slob, a pointer to documentation (even if it's just a suggestion to Google for a key phrase) is better.

...

- Michael Bernstein

-- Mike

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