+----[ Denis [Fr_re] ]--------------------------------------------- [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] | "J. Atwood" wrote: | > | > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there | > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? | > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do | > it right. | | Let's take up bets. | | In an egg, there is white and yellow, | when these are mixed, what does remain ? | Just yellow, doesn't it ? It doesn't matter how much you shake an egg. It's still got a yolk and a white. You have to smash open the egg and break the yolk before you get just 'yellow' -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|

Paul Everitt wrote:

That's [the egg] quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well.

On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities.

Context ======= Now, it's late, I've read the whole thread and I'm very calm, I swear. You asked our thoughts, here are mine, with humility. A cheap market study, you must confess ... I'm a french speaking Belgian, excuse my strange English. Prolog ====== I didn't say you were lessening your commitment to Python and (a) I had read the FAQ (b) your answer shows I'm not quite wrong about you. But I must admit I was not explicit enough ... (I'll come back with this a few lines further :-) Act 1 ===== Why do we love Python ? Because of the Zen. "Explicit is better than Implicit, ..." I'm sure you know Tim Peeters Classics. We love Python because of its purity. Why were the two colorfull metaphors speaking about white and another color ? (Red socks and yolk). White is Python. Act2 ==== Zope is not quite white. And most of us wanted it whitened, with age and maturity. Do you need to be burnt to accept the stove is hot ? Then, look at the symptom in this list : you're overwhelmed with posts you can't answer to. Why are there so much posts ? Because there are so much Zopistas ? I would love to think so. But I fear it's because the ZDP is still so young (they yell for help not far from here), and you, you're very cute Python programmers, but couldn't help but mess python purity to get things running as you wanted. With Python, it rolls; with Zope it sometimes roll, but then it's so good, mmmh ? There are lots of strange features, black magic. At least for most of your users, some may have better eyes. Act3 ==== And now, you think you're ready to bite in the Perl apple. I would have think you could grow a little stronger before attracting foreign intricacy, increasing product support needs. Python helps you, I hope you're strong enough with such a weapon to grow up and to firm up at the same time. I hope you see now I'm not fighting against Perl, COM or CORBA. I fear nor hate either. It's about you and us, your community. You do anything to broaden your base and you say we won't be splashed ? Will we gain or loose if you succeed in attracting Perl developers (I don't predict a big rush, they are so shy :-) Will Zope be stronger or messier. It's a political choice. If you don't fear some losses in your ranks, provided you get new strong soldiers further, all right, that's a good choice, you're rational. After all, product support is your job, you'll have more work opportunities so. If you love Python because Python is also CP4E, if you'd love Zope to be WP4E (Web Publication for Everybody), you're running too fast. From here where I sit, it looks like the RedHat Syndrom. I hope I'm wrong. I hope it's just because I'm getting old and I fear that juvenile impatience. Epilog ====== Explicit is better than Implicit. I give you the mike, tell us what your priorities are, what you do want to achieve. So, you'll be "unequivocal", we'll know you better. "The synergy between the decision to go open source and the increase in revenue is direct. It's astounding," Everitt said(*). What next ? Lucrative open source or real Zen ? (*) Linux Journal http://www.linux-mag.com/cgi-bin/printer.pl?issue=2000-01&article=venture -- Denis Frère P3B : Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Carolorégien http://www.p3b.org Aragne : Internet - Réseaux - Formations http://www.aragne.com

Gang (and Paul), I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink. After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this). The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. My inner secret hope is that once all the Perl Jocks see some nice Python/DTML code they will never want to go back. :) Again, congrats DC... this boat is big enough for everyone. Lets talk TCL! J At 5:16 AM -0400 5/25/2000, Paul Everitt wrote:

"J. Atwood" wrote:

...

Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there

I'm stunned that you're stunned. :^)

Seriously, Python and Perl are two scripting languages, similar in scope, both successful. The Java market has about a thousand choices for app servers, whereas the Perl market's need is largely unmet.

...

would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.

Yes we will. As Jim is fond of saying, we allow methods in a lot of languages already: Python, HTML (DTML), SQL, and soon XSLT. The latter is *definately* one that will make Perl look readable. :^)

Don't worry, this is a Good Thing. Scripting languages should work together and present a strong alternative.

--Paul

"J. Atwood" wrote:

Gang (and Paul),

I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink.

After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this).

Exactly, we don't let python disturb DTML, why would we let perl?

The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win.

This is, in fact, one of the key points. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral

On Thu, 25 May 2000, Martijn Faassen wrote:

J. Atwood wrote:

...

Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.

I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :)

Regards,

Martijn

"Me too" * 1000 Oleg. ---- Oleg Broytmann http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/unix/797/ phd2@email.com Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.

Chris McDonough writes:

Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things:

Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly

I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?

Personally, two things, one of which fortunately isn't on your list and the other is an (ick) management problem: 1. Perl Products - I'm really glad these aren't included in your plans bcause someone would then come out with something we really needed, didn't have time to write and would then have to maintain in *Perl*. 2. Today I have to look at hiring web developers (expect to see the first job announcement in early June :-)) who probably don't know Zope and Python and training them in these tools. With Perl methods possible, I forsee some interesting debates... (Yes, I was fluent in Perl at one time (1.0-3.x mainly). I'm very out of practice now and have no desire to get back in practice :-(.) Dan Pierson

Oleg Broytmann wrote:

A year ago I resigned from a web development company because they forced me to write Perl. I switched to Python and was and is very happy about it. I don't want to see a line of Perl. And after all DC annonced Perl Methods! How do you think I can feel about it? I resigned (i.e. - spent my money, nervous, my time to switch to another company) - and what I found now? Perl again.

It's just a word. You don't need to use it. You could even set up a filter on your mail client to get rid of it entirely.

Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad.

Don't hire a Perl developer. Don't use Perl in Zope. Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them. Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com> To: <phd@phd.russ.ru> Cc: "Zope Mailing List" <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope

Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them.

I was a little puzzled when I first read the announcement, but after reading the FAQ I think it sounds like a great idea! People who are comfortable with perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I think you can bring a lot of people into the Zope fold with this.

Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)

Can Active Server Pages and VBScript be far behind? :) Kevin

Oleg Broytmann wrote:

On Thu, 25 May 2000, Kevin Dangoor wrote:

...

People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I

Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you).

'Perl Products'? Perhaps not. 'ZClass Products' that are built with Perl Methods? Almost certainly yes. <sigh> Michael Bernstein.

Kevin Dangoor wrote:

...

perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml.

No!!!

Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies get confused enough with python...

Even as a Perl fan, I agree and don't see the sense in placing Perl-style expressions in DTML, or any other non-Python language for that matter - but I don't detect this is going to happen anyway. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.

At 10:15 am -0400 25/5/00, Chris McDonough wrote:

Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon.

Ooo Ooo - XSLT? Presumably I should read your sentence as "You will have the option of using Perl as well as XSLT methods pretty soon" and not "Thou wilt need Perl to get XSLT methods" ? :)

If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them.

This is a good point Chris - it's got to be likely that more Perly people will migrate to Python rather than vice-versa isn't it? I mean if you already know Python, you're hardly likely to start doing your work in Perl are you? :)

Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)

snigger... Tone. ------ Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project http://nle.ncl.ac.uk/ The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888 Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2

"J. Atwood" wrote: [...]

There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers out there, just think of all the cool things they write (especially if they found a better tool).

I hear this repeated, but no one explains why they will convert? When they get to stay in perlland, they don't actually use Zope and python, so they don't really see the better tool. And no, not having perl products won't change that, as I have saidl someone will eventually do it, with or without DC's support.

On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:02:42PM +0000, Michael Bernstein wrote:

In you hadn't noticed, ActiveState already has dealings 'with the dark side'.

Bring on the paranoia people! Microsoft _invests_ in ActiveState. ActiveState originally started with a Win32 port of Perl, together with support packages for Perl on Win32 platforms. And commercial development tools, like a visual debugger, and special versions of Perl that plug into IIS and the ActiveScripting platform. At IPC8 this January, they announced they were extending their services to Python as well. This means that ActiveState now also does Python for Win32, with all extensions, support, and commercial products they do for Perl as well. It's what they are good at. No wonder Microsoft invests in ActiveState, because Microsoft wants Win32 to be a strong development platform. Now, for all of you who are worried about M$ domination, ActiveState only just announced that they'll be adding support for Perl and Python to Mozilla, not just on win32, but, IIRC, all platforms where both Mozilla and the scripting languages in question run. And they'll throw in an IDE built on Mozilla as well, which will therefor run on all platforms Mozilla can run on. And there was much rejoicing. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineer mailto:mj@digicool.com | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server ---------------------------------------------

Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad.

I was thinking about the announcement for a while as well. I do not like Perl. I think your point is very good though. Right now I am using Zope for a client and everything is fine. If Zope supports Perl, they may hire Perl people. And you are right, what if they quit? It may happen that the market to find qualified Zope programmers becomes even tighter, since Zope programmers are now required to speak both, Python and Perl well. From a technological and development point of view, I think implementing Perl is great and very exciting....imagining making this "scribble" language object-oriented. But at the end I like my good looking object-oriented Python code. :) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management

Chris McDonough wrote:

I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?

In short, the programming Utopia that is Zope and Python getting fubar'ed... But, having read the FAQ and seen the responses, it looks like this _isn't_ going to happen, unless everyone at DC is a politician: promising one thing and doing another ;-) cheers, Chris PS: Will all the ActiveState stuff, and the perl stuff in general, be open source?

Chris McDonough wrote:

Isn't this covered in the FAQ?

The FAQ wasn't referred to directly in the original announcement; there was a web page with a FAQ but my mail message was already gone before I read the FAQ.

Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things:

It wasn't that strong a reaction; I just think Perl is scary. :) I also think DTML is scary! Expressing my feelings in this is not meant to be a 'strong reaction'; I wasn't complaining (this time :), sorry if it seemed like that.

Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly

I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?

I think it'd be mostly glue code, changes to the Zope core, possible side-effects on this change on the Python part (in the sense of "well, we can't do that as that would break Perl compatilility"), all before interfaces have stabilized. The interfaces project is _very_ important, and as another poster expressed, afterwards it's fine to add stuff to the core. Before, it's fairly scary. Anyway, I wasn't that scared. I just don't want to _see_ the Perl support; don't want to have to think about it at all. Cool for the Perl folks, but I just don't want to deal with the consequences myself. :) This is probably because it isn't a feature that helps me any; I'm willing to deal with the consequences of features that I'm interested in, so this is in part selfish. Perhaps more focus on COM/CORBA style component integration could also mitigate this problem? Imagine we build such a future system; if the Perl system goes *around* such an interface, we'll end up with more complex code. Regards, Martijn

On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:24:17AM -0700, Michel Pelletier wrote:

Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth.

The main thing is that "full fledged" things in perl would be fine. Any product or site that is completely perl or completely python is going to be easy for people to maintain. I just looked about for the FAQ and couldn't find it, so I'm not sure what it says except what I've picked up here "no products in perl". I assume this means no external products in perl. If Perl Methods exist, though, then some people will put them into their ZClasses and their _internal_ Products, and you'll end up with products that _are_ mixes of perl and python. It would be _really_ bad if someone installed a wonderful product like SquishDot and discovered that half the internals were in perl only 6 months down the track when they actually needed to change something in it. The main thing is that the Product page needs to specify EXACTLY what a Product uses or requires so people don't ever install things that run counter to their skills. Products need to list any other products they need (like TinyTables), whether or not they need a Database Connection and any languages they may have methods in that _aren't_ python or dtml. That there's a possibility of contamination isn't a problem at all as long as everything's labelled properly. (P.S. The Member Contributed Products page has long needed the "Product", "Created by" and "Date" headings to actually be clickable and to then sort the list by that value. I can't count the times I've gone to the Product page to see if there is something new and had to look at every single date to try and work out if it's newer than the last time I looked...)

Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort.

I know someone writing a Zope-like management interface in PHP. Are PHP methods coming? (Actually they'd probably be more useful than Perl methods from what I hear...) -- Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson ~ nihil mutatem, omni deletum ~ It doesn't count as intimacy until somebody starts crying.

Paul Everitt wrote:

...

Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods.

Why is this a good thing? ;-)

Aww come on Chris, think positively. :-) I happen to like Perl, and still use it a lot outside of worktime, so I'm pleased about this - whether or not people like the language, it does have a lot of existing support and developers who might find this a useful way to get involved in exploring the wonderful world of Zope. So this is A Good Thing (TM) The important thing is that the support is added in a Zope-like fashion... or else it'll end up being A Bad Thing (TM) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.

"Eric W. Sink" wrote:

After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand.

[ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ]

:-). I think there is a significant proportion of Python programmers who are Perl refugees (funny, you don't hear much about the flip-side of that equation), so this announcement was bound to rub a few raw nerves the wrong way (if you pardon the metaphor mix). I'm glad my Perl maintenance days are (mostly) behind me (where the only # in a 4K+ script was the #! invocation at the start - shudder), so I wasn't too sure what I thought when I read the announcement. But I figure DC are pretty smart guys (heck, look at Zope - I couldn't dream that up in a month of Bourbon), and so far they've been on the ball, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Heck, might even win a few more Python cultists^Wactivists^Wenthusiasts along the way. :-) (* Other well thought comments regretfully snipped *). Regards, Daryl Tester

"Eric W. Sink" wrote:

Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously surprised a lot of people. I haven't seen much positive reaction here on the list.

In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be quite valid indeed. After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand.

[ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ]

Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in support of this news. The following is just my opinion, formulated largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope announcement in a more positive light:

In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python".

Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java".

Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of them.

Zope is different. It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all about Python. However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope is about server-side *scripting*.

I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part of the Zope developers. Looking over the history of Digital Creations and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood.

I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of Really Big Vision.

Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'.

Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'.

If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into its community?

Well, I think I can comment on som eof teh 'revulsion' of many of the persons on the list. Some of us have/do hang out on c.l.python and c.l.perl. We have witness _ferst_hand_ this 'community's collective 'gargabe'. TO compare the two communities, you start with how they act/ do not act as one. First place to look: usenet, the sewer. In c.l.perl, any mention of non-perl, or anything less than absolute praise for perl, will land you in a flame war the likes or which satan himself wears asbestos clothing for (and if you mention python, satan bows out due to heat). I have seen people _try_ to start flame wars on c.l.py, and fail 99% of the time. I have only once seen something close to a flame war on c.l.py in many years. And in that was due in a large part to the other person in it (those who witnessed it now who I am speaking of). I believe that at least a good portion of the reason for the negative reaction is not just perl, but also due to this 'community' we hypothetically acquire. Let's be honest, perl users tend to be people who learned/learning it because it would help get them a job, and they also tend to be of the script-kiddie variety. yes, there are good perl people, I am not denying it. But there are far, far more of the negative kind than there are the positive kind (and _they_ are already converting ;-). I can pretty much gaurantee that oce we start getting perl people on the list, doing stuff in perl, the following scenario will occur repeatedly: "I want to do this, how do I do it?" "like this...<python code>" "I don;t want to use python, I want to use the all cool lnaguage of perl" "Sorry, can't help you" "You suck, I thought I could do this in perl, and now you say I am on my own? What good is a support list without support. YOU said you SUPPORTED PERL!! I DON'T WANT to use python, why in hell would I??" We will also likely see the following at least a couple times: "Yeah, python was so cool they had to open Zope up to perl 'cuz pythn wasn't cutting it" and variations. Thus, since I doubt we can get DC to change their minds, I propose we prepare for at least the following list splits: zope-devel-python zope-devel-perl zope-devel-general zope-general zope-python zope-perl I also gaurantee that if we don't see the split, and we actually do get a sizeable portion of the perl users on these lists, we will see flamewars, and thus a decrease of Python people on the lists. Call me pessimistic, but I have _witnessed_ repeatedly, this precise situation. I am just trying to cut through the emotions, and deal with reality here. Now, for those still reading... some technical issues. Have you SEEN perl's OO code?? I have actually compared perl and python objects, and even my anti-python friends (they are decreasing very quickly) admit that perl's handling of objects stinks to high orbit. It may be a Object publishing environment, but it still needs topublish one basic type of object. Here is where I think we will see the biggest part of the prblems on the technical side. Perl's objects are of a lesser ... refinement than Python's, and interfacing the two directly is not pretty, nor easy. That is why I favor supporting perl through CORBA, let an independant system designed specifically for that 'type' of thing handle it. But that's my opinion.

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In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, ..... :)

What I would like to see first is support for Rebol ( www.rebol.com ). It's a great language for writing internet robots ( grabbing content off remote pages or ftp sites, retrieving mail, sending mail, scheduling jobs ) inter alia. Would fill a lot of the gaps that Zope has. - -- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiu<at>compkarori.co.nz http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php Powered by Interbase and Zope -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBOS5h87TRdIWzaLpMEQILLQCbBzAYZ90+UTWq1dWvm8EnOhd+k9gAoIaE kpoJVTSfQiK5eMstHi54zNSf =XWCR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----