Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods. This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up to the O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code is closer to being available. ----------- Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope application server, announced today that it is teaming with ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope. Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet applications and is a key success story for the Open Source software movement. Zope is written in Python, the fastest growing Open Source scripting language. "It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future architecture of the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital Creations. "This dynamic architecture, and the people working with it, are a fantastic match for scripting languages. Thus it is natural that Digital Creations would team with ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope." "Zope is a powerful content management system that we use internally," said Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding the power of Perl to Zope, we will be able to leverage all the existing Perl technology that we have as well as bring the worlds of Python and Perl closer together." Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to run in the same application. More specifically, Perl programmers can code critical pieces of business logic in Zope solutions. "The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most important open source programming languages together," stated Gisle Aas, Senior Developer, ActiveState. "Python programmers will be able to directly take advantage of the large collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found on CPAN. Perl programmers will be able to program and customize the Zope web application server using their favorite language." The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide with the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July 2000. For more information on the project, please visit the Perl For Zope project page at http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/. Contact Information For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt, paul@digicool.com, 540.371.6909x102. For ActiveState, contact Lori Pike, lorip@activestate.com, 604.713.8433. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ----------------------------------------- The Open Source Zope application server http://www.zope.org/ -----------------------------------------
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right. J At 7:32 PM -0400 5/24/2000, Paul Everitt wrote:
Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods.
This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up to the O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code is closer to being available.
-----------
Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope application server, announced today that it is teaming with ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope.
Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet applications and is a key success story for the Open Source software movement. Zope is written in Python, the fastest growing Open Source scripting language.
"It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future architecture of the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital Creations. "This dynamic architecture, and the people working with it, are a fantastic match for scripting languages. Thus it is natural that Digital Creations would team with ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope."
"Zope is a powerful content management system that we use internally," said Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding the power of Perl to Zope, we will be able to leverage all the existing Perl technology that we have as well as bring the worlds of Python and Perl closer together."
Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to run in the same application. More specifically, Perl programmers can code critical pieces of business logic in Zope solutions.
"The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most important open source programming languages together," stated Gisle Aas, Senior Developer, ActiveState. "Python programmers will be able to directly take advantage of the large collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found on CPAN. Perl programmers will be able to program and customize the Zope web application server using their favorite language."
The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide with the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July 2000. For more information on the project, please visit the Perl For Zope project page at http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/.
Contact Information
For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt, paul@digicool.com, 540.371.6909x102. For ActiveState, contact Lori Pike, lorip@activestate.com, 604.713.8433.
--Paul
Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ----------------------------------------- The Open Source Zope application server http://www.zope.org/ -----------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
"J. Atwood" wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
Let's take up bets. In an egg, there is white and yellow, when these are mixed, what does remain ? Just yellow, doesn't it ? I guess that's the price of fame. -- Denis Frère P3B : Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Carolorégien http://www.p3b.org Aragne : Internet - Réseaux - Formations http://www.aragne.com
+----[ Denis [Fr_re] ]--------------------------------------------- [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] | "J. Atwood" wrote: | > | > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there | > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? | > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do | > it right. | | Let's take up bets. | | In an egg, there is white and yellow, | when these are mixed, what does remain ? | Just yellow, doesn't it ? It doesn't matter how much you shake an egg. It's still got a yolk and a white. You have to smash open the egg and break the yolk before you get just 'yellow' -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
Denis Frère wrote:
"J. Atwood" wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
Let's take up bets.
In an egg, there is white and yellow, when these are mixed, what does remain ? Just yellow, doesn't it ?
I guess that's the price of fame.
That's quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well. On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. --Paul
Paul Everitt wrote:
That's [the egg] quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well.
On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities.
Context ======= Now, it's late, I've read the whole thread and I'm very calm, I swear. You asked our thoughts, here are mine, with humility. A cheap market study, you must confess ... I'm a french speaking Belgian, excuse my strange English. Prolog ====== I didn't say you were lessening your commitment to Python and (a) I had read the FAQ (b) your answer shows I'm not quite wrong about you. But I must admit I was not explicit enough ... (I'll come back with this a few lines further :-) Act 1 ===== Why do we love Python ? Because of the Zen. "Explicit is better than Implicit, ..." I'm sure you know Tim Peeters Classics. We love Python because of its purity. Why were the two colorfull metaphors speaking about white and another color ? (Red socks and yolk). White is Python. Act2 ==== Zope is not quite white. And most of us wanted it whitened, with age and maturity. Do you need to be burnt to accept the stove is hot ? Then, look at the symptom in this list : you're overwhelmed with posts you can't answer to. Why are there so much posts ? Because there are so much Zopistas ? I would love to think so. But I fear it's because the ZDP is still so young (they yell for help not far from here), and you, you're very cute Python programmers, but couldn't help but mess python purity to get things running as you wanted. With Python, it rolls; with Zope it sometimes roll, but then it's so good, mmmh ? There are lots of strange features, black magic. At least for most of your users, some may have better eyes. Act3 ==== And now, you think you're ready to bite in the Perl apple. I would have think you could grow a little stronger before attracting foreign intricacy, increasing product support needs. Python helps you, I hope you're strong enough with such a weapon to grow up and to firm up at the same time. I hope you see now I'm not fighting against Perl, COM or CORBA. I fear nor hate either. It's about you and us, your community. You do anything to broaden your base and you say we won't be splashed ? Will we gain or loose if you succeed in attracting Perl developers (I don't predict a big rush, they are so shy :-) Will Zope be stronger or messier. It's a political choice. If you don't fear some losses in your ranks, provided you get new strong soldiers further, all right, that's a good choice, you're rational. After all, product support is your job, you'll have more work opportunities so. If you love Python because Python is also CP4E, if you'd love Zope to be WP4E (Web Publication for Everybody), you're running too fast. From here where I sit, it looks like the RedHat Syndrom. I hope I'm wrong. I hope it's just because I'm getting old and I fear that juvenile impatience. Epilog ====== Explicit is better than Implicit. I give you the mike, tell us what your priorities are, what you do want to achieve. So, you'll be "unequivocal", we'll know you better. "The synergy between the decision to go open source and the increase in revenue is direct. It's astounding," Everitt said(*). What next ? Lucrative open source or real Zen ? (*) Linux Journal http://www.linux-mag.com/cgi-bin/printer.pl?issue=2000-01&article=venture -- Denis Frère P3B : Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Carolorégien http://www.p3b.org Aragne : Internet - Réseaux - Formations http://www.aragne.com
"J. Atwood" wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there
I'm stunned that you're stunned. :^) Seriously, Python and Perl are two scripting languages, similar in scope, both successful. The Java market has about a thousand choices for app servers, whereas the Perl market's need is largely unmet.
would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
Yes we will. As Jim is fond of saying, we allow methods in a lot of languages already: Python, HTML (DTML), SQL, and soon XSLT. The latter is *definately* one that will make Perl look readable. :^) Don't worry, this is a Good Thing. Scripting languages should work together and present a strong alternative. --Paul
Gang (and Paul), I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink. After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this). The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. My inner secret hope is that once all the Perl Jocks see some nice Python/DTML code they will never want to go back. :) Again, congrats DC... this boat is big enough for everyone. Lets talk TCL! J At 5:16 AM -0400 5/25/2000, Paul Everitt wrote:
"J. Atwood" wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there
I'm stunned that you're stunned. :^)
Seriously, Python and Perl are two scripting languages, similar in scope, both successful. The Java market has about a thousand choices for app servers, whereas the Perl market's need is largely unmet.
would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
Yes we will. As Jim is fond of saying, we allow methods in a lot of languages already: Python, HTML (DTML), SQL, and soon XSLT. The latter is *definately* one that will make Perl look readable. :^)
Don't worry, this is a Good Thing. Scripting languages should work together and present a strong alternative.
--Paul
"J. Atwood" wrote:
I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink.
I like that metaphor :-)
After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this).
Yup. In the same way we have Python Methods, External Methods & DTML Methods. But no Perl 'Products' and certainly no perl in other Zope code. That would be bad. But from reading the FAQ that seems to be what is happening. In which case, 'cool :-)'
The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. My inner secret hope is that once all the Perl Jocks see some nice Python/DTML code they will never want to go back. :)
Well, you can lead a horse to water but perl horses might just sit there chewing leaves to get their water nonetheless :( cheers, Chris
"J. Atwood" wrote:
Gang (and Paul),
I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink.
After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this).
Exactly, we don't let python disturb DTML, why would we let perl?
The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win.
This is, in fact, one of the key points. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral
J. Atwood wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :) Regards, Martijn
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Martijn Faassen wrote:
J. Atwood wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :)
Regards,
Martijn
"Me too" * 1000 Oleg. ---- Oleg Broytmann http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/unix/797/ phd2@email.com Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
Isn't this covered in the FAQ? Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things: Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Martijn Faassen wrote:
J. Atwood wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :)
Regards,
Martijn
"Me too" * 1000
Chris McDonough writes:
Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things:
Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly
I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?
Personally, two things, one of which fortunately isn't on your list and the other is an (ick) management problem: 1. Perl Products - I'm really glad these aren't included in your plans bcause someone would then come out with something we really needed, didn't have time to write and would then have to maintain in *Perl*. 2. Today I have to look at hiring web developers (expect to see the first job announcement in early June :-)) who probably don't know Zope and Python and training them in these tools. With Perl methods possible, I forsee some interesting debates... (Yes, I was fluent in Perl at one time (1.0-3.x mainly). I'm very out of practice now and have no desire to get back in practice :-(.) Dan Pierson
Dear Chris... On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris McDonough wrote:
Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to
A year ago I resigned from a web development company because they forced me to write Perl. I switched to Python and was and is very happy about it. I don't want to see a line of Perl. And after all DC annonced Perl Methods! How do you think I can feel about it? I resigned (i.e. - spent my money, nervous, my time to switch to another company) - and what I found now? Perl again. Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad. Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
Oleg Broytmann wrote:
A year ago I resigned from a web development company because they forced me to write Perl. I switched to Python and was and is very happy about it. I don't want to see a line of Perl. And after all DC annonced Perl Methods! How do you think I can feel about it? I resigned (i.e. - spent my money, nervous, my time to switch to another company) - and what I found now? Perl again.
It's just a word. You don't need to use it. You could even set up a filter on your mail client to get rid of it entirely.
Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad.
Don't hire a Perl developer. Don't use Perl in Zope. Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them. Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris McDonough wrote:
Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay.
Yes, this is my point, too. I think DTML became a little to much. I'd like to see DTML much less powerful, with all programming going to Python Products and Python Methods.
Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)
Yes, for a long time I see Perl very like Windoze - Broken by Design :( Bloated, hairy, and designed to force programmers to make bugs. Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com> To: <phd@phd.russ.ru> Cc: "Zope Mailing List" <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them.
I was a little puzzled when I first read the announcement, but after reading the FAQ I think it sounds like a great idea! People who are comfortable with perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I think you can bring a lot of people into the Zope fold with this.
Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)
Can Active Server Pages and VBScript be far behind? :) Kevin
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I
Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you). Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
Oleg Broytmann wrote:
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I
Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you).
'Perl Products'? Perhaps not. 'ZClass Products' that are built with Perl Methods? Almost certainly yes. <sigh> Michael Bernstein.
Kevin Dangoor wrote:
perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml.
No!!! Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies get confused enough with python... please... Chris
Kevin Dangoor wrote:
perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml.
No!!!
Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies get confused enough with python...
Even as a Perl fan, I agree and don't see the sense in placing Perl-style expressions in DTML, or any other non-Python language for that matter - but I don't detect this is going to happen anyway. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Withers" <chrisw@nipltd.com> To: "Kevin Dangoor" <kid@kendermedia.com> Cc: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com>; <phd@phd.russ.ru>; "Zope Mailing List" <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Kevin Dangoor wrote:
perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml.
No!!!
Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies get confused enough with python...
Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like THAT! (Which would indeed be appalling.) What I meant was that a typical through the web product developed today would be a combination of PythonMethods and DTML... people coming from the perl world could make their products using PerlMethods and DTML. Expressions in DTML are still python, which shouldn't be *too* painful for perl folks. Kevin
At 10:15 am -0400 25/5/00, Chris McDonough wrote:
Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon.
Ooo Ooo - XSLT? Presumably I should read your sentence as "You will have the option of using Perl as well as XSLT methods pretty soon" and not "Thou wilt need Perl to get XSLT methods" ? :)
If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them.
This is a good point Chris - it's got to be likely that more Perly people will migrate to Python rather than vice-versa isn't it? I mean if you already know Python, you're hardly likely to start doing your work in Perl are you? :)
Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)
snigger... Tone. ------ Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project http://nle.ncl.ac.uk/ The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888 Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2
Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)
SOAP? (just kidding). The head of my company here has a theory that all "techies" have a religion when it comes to tools/languages/application environments. To a certain degree he is right. I believe in Python. I use it, love it and live by it. I have faith that if I write something in Python I can come back to it in a day or a year and understand it in minutes. I am also a believer in Zope, first for its power but second because it uses Python. Zope will benefit from the Perl community just as it has with XML. I agree with some of the comments that I don't want to see Perl code floating around in my management screen but it would also be very powerful to have modules/products written in Perl and dealt with in DTML. There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers out there, just think of all the cool things they write (especially if they found a better tool). JMA
"J. Atwood" wrote: [...]
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers out there, just think of all the cool things they write (especially if they found a better tool).
I hear this repeated, but no one explains why they will convert? When they get to stay in perlland, they don't actually use Zope and python, so they don't really see the better tool. And no, not having perl products won't change that, as I have saidl someone will eventually do it, with or without DC's support.
Chris McDonough wrote:
Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-)
In you hadn't noticed, ActiveState already has dealings 'with the dark side'. Integrating Visual Python into MS Visual Studio: http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/Media_Center/News/Press959117519.html A binary only release of Python: http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython.html I won't bother putting in a Yoda quote about the dark side being easier, not stronger... ;-) Michael Bernstein.
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:02:42PM +0000, Michael Bernstein wrote:
In you hadn't noticed, ActiveState already has dealings 'with the dark side'.
Bring on the paranoia people! Microsoft _invests_ in ActiveState. ActiveState originally started with a Win32 port of Perl, together with support packages for Perl on Win32 platforms. And commercial development tools, like a visual debugger, and special versions of Perl that plug into IIS and the ActiveScripting platform. At IPC8 this January, they announced they were extending their services to Python as well. This means that ActiveState now also does Python for Win32, with all extensions, support, and commercial products they do for Perl as well. It's what they are good at. No wonder Microsoft invests in ActiveState, because Microsoft wants Win32 to be a strong development platform. Now, for all of you who are worried about M$ domination, ActiveState only just announced that they'll be adding support for Perl and Python to Mozilla, not just on win32, but, IIRC, all platforms where both Mozilla and the scripting languages in question run. And they'll throw in an IDE built on Mozilla as well, which will therefor run on all platforms Mozilla can run on. And there was much rejoicing. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineer mailto:mj@digicool.com | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server ---------------------------------------------
Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I
I'm personally looking forward to being able to use Perl with Zope, so long as the Perl support is implemented in a Zope-consistent fashion. But I'm always used to being the odd one out ;-) With situations like mixed-language support I'm probably going to end up at NIP having to continue to use just Python for the benefit of others, though there are enough Perl developers in the office to take my place should I disappear. In fact, it might encourage some of the other developers to take a look at Zope more, I suspect Python is putting them off odd as that may sound. Erm, but anyway the point is it's not compulsory to use Perl now that the option will be available, and in most cases it would be best to ensure developers use the same language. I use Python here in the office because it's what everyone else uses, it's a capable language and it provides consistency with what everyone else is doing. I doubt I'll be able to deviate and use Perl without extremely good reasons, personal preference won't be accepted by the others I can safely say. Eh Chris? ;-) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.
Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad.
I was thinking about the announcement for a while as well. I do not like Perl. I think your point is very good though. Right now I am using Zope for a client and everything is fine. If Zope supports Perl, they may hire Perl people. And you are right, what if they quit? It may happen that the market to find qualified Zope programmers becomes even tighter, since Zope programmers are now required to speak both, Python and Perl well. From a technological and development point of view, I think implementing Perl is great and very exciting....imagining making this "scribble" language object-oriented. But at the end I like my good looking object-oriented Python code. :) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management
----- Original Message ----- From: Oleg Broytmann <phd@phd.russ.ru>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris McDonough wrote:
Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to
Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad.
I'm agree with Oleg! To write in Perl could be nicely or interesting (sometimes), but to modify some code written in Perl is ... suicide! I have learn Perl one year ago but for large projects (I presume) is not a good choice. When someone ask me to start something in Perl, I give him the next code : (may be you know it) $_="The perl journal\r"; $|=1; $e='s/([\x41-\x5a])(\W*)([\x61-\x7a])/\l\1\2\u\3/g'; print while select('','','',.1),eval $e || $e=~tr [4567lu] [6745ul]; The problem with this code is that it works :) Have fun! Marcel
Chris McDonough wrote:
I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?
In short, the programming Utopia that is Zope and Python getting fubar'ed... But, having read the FAQ and seen the responses, it looks like this _isn't_ going to happen, unless everyone at DC is a politician: promising one thing and doing another ;-) cheers, Chris PS: Will all the ActiveState stuff, and the perl stuff in general, be open source?
Chris McDonough wrote:
Isn't this covered in the FAQ?
Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things:
Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly
I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?
The only badness I can see coming out of this is this: At present, I can consult at a client who is running Zope, and I'm reasonably confident that I can read and understand all their code. When people can write their site half in Perl, I could well be stuck... unless I learn Perl :-) -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited
Chris McDonough wrote:
Isn't this covered in the FAQ?
The FAQ wasn't referred to directly in the original announcement; there was a web page with a FAQ but my mail message was already gone before I read the FAQ.
Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things:
It wasn't that strong a reaction; I just think Perl is scary. :) I also think DTML is scary! Expressing my feelings in this is not meant to be a 'strong reaction'; I wasn't complaining (this time :), sorry if it seemed like that.
Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly
I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about?
I think it'd be mostly glue code, changes to the Zope core, possible side-effects on this change on the Python part (in the sense of "well, we can't do that as that would break Perl compatilility"), all before interfaces have stabilized. The interfaces project is _very_ important, and as another poster expressed, afterwards it's fine to add stuff to the core. Before, it's fairly scary. Anyway, I wasn't that scared. I just don't want to _see_ the Perl support; don't want to have to think about it at all. Cool for the Perl folks, but I just don't want to deal with the consequences myself. :) This is probably because it isn't a feature that helps me any; I'm willing to deal with the consequences of features that I'm interested in, so this is in part selfish. Perhaps more focus on COM/CORBA style component integration could also mitigate this problem? Imagine we build such a future system; if the Perl system goes *around* such an interface, we'll end up with more complex code. Regards, Martijn
Martijn Faassen wrote:
J. Atwood wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :)
Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth. Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. Look at Gnome and KDE and how they are constantly working to cross purposes, inventing the same interfaces at thousands of levels in subltly or grossly different ways. It's actually pretty depressing when you think about how an unified effort would far exceed the sum of the two incredible efforts to date. We don't want that in the web world. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral
On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:24:17AM -0700, Michel Pelletier wrote:
Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth.
The main thing is that "full fledged" things in perl would be fine. Any product or site that is completely perl or completely python is going to be easy for people to maintain. I just looked about for the FAQ and couldn't find it, so I'm not sure what it says except what I've picked up here "no products in perl". I assume this means no external products in perl. If Perl Methods exist, though, then some people will put them into their ZClasses and their _internal_ Products, and you'll end up with products that _are_ mixes of perl and python. It would be _really_ bad if someone installed a wonderful product like SquishDot and discovered that half the internals were in perl only 6 months down the track when they actually needed to change something in it. The main thing is that the Product page needs to specify EXACTLY what a Product uses or requires so people don't ever install things that run counter to their skills. Products need to list any other products they need (like TinyTables), whether or not they need a Database Connection and any languages they may have methods in that _aren't_ python or dtml. That there's a possibility of contamination isn't a problem at all as long as everything's labelled properly. (P.S. The Member Contributed Products page has long needed the "Product", "Created by" and "Date" headings to actually be clickable and to then sort the list by that value. I can't count the times I've gone to the Product page to see if there is something new and had to look at every single date to try and work out if it's newer than the last time I looked...)
Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort.
I know someone writing a Zope-like management interface in PHP. Are PHP methods coming? (Actually they'd probably be more useful than Perl methods from what I hear...) -- Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson ~ nihil mutatem, omni deletum ~ It doesn't count as intimacy until somebody starts crying.
Michel Pelletier wrote:
Martijn Faassen wrote:
J. Atwood wrote:
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right.
I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :)
Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth.
I certainly hope so1 :-) I echo another question: will this be a product we can choose not to install, just as PythonMethods is?
Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. Look at Gnome and KDE and how they are constantly working to cross purposes, inventing the same interfaces at thousands of levels in subltly or grossly different ways. It's actually pretty depressing when you think about how an unified effort would far exceed the sum of the two incredible efforts to date.
Actually, there is good reason to doubt such a thing could exist. GNOME was born in no small part due to the GNOME folks not able to get along with (on a variety of levels)/or agree with the KDE folks. To think they could have produced a 'better' interface in a 'unified' effort is at best hopeful.
Zopistas, Paul Everitt wrote:
Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope application server, announced today that it is teaming with ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope. [...] --Paul
Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909
What do you think about this? All I can say for myself is this: I know several people - myself included - who moved from perl to python/java/c++ for many very good reasons. What are the benefits? - being able to use DBI when I have Zope Database connectors? - finally having people doing obfuscated perl contests again in their products, when I was just glad to having gotten rid of all this? This has so many implications... I'm getting dizzy...have to get a coffee right now. Greetings, Heiko -- heiko.stoermer@innominate.de innominate AG networkingpeople fon: +49.30.308806-0 fax: -77 web: http://innominate.de
Heiko Stoermer wrote:
All I can say for myself is this: I know several people - myself included - who moved from perl to python/java/c++ for many very good reasons.
Don't blame you. You did the right thing, and nothing in this announcement changes that. On the other hand, hopefully this will make it easier for others to make a move as well. Thanks for the note! --Paul
+----[ Chris Withers ]--------------------------------------------- | Paul Everitt wrote: | > | > Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over | > the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: | > Perl Methods. | | Why is this a good thing? ;-) It may increase the user-base of Zope and an increase in the number of Python fans. :-) -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
Paul Everitt wrote:
Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods.
Why is this a good thing? ;-)
Aww come on Chris, think positively. :-) I happen to like Perl, and still use it a lot outside of worktime, so I'm pleased about this - whether or not people like the language, it does have a lot of existing support and developers who might find this a useful way to get involved in exploring the wonderful world of Zope. So this is A Good Thing (TM) The important thing is that the support is added in a Zope-like fashion... or else it'll end up being A Bad Thing (TM) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.
I guess that many of us - like me - have come to Zope and Python after some experience with Perl. I'm really glad I learned Python after programming in Perl, C, R, Lisp, Pascal, Forth, Basic and Assembler. Python nowadays clearly is my favorite and Perl is located on the other end together with assembler. Python helps me writing structured programms and I am able to read my code after a while even if I didn't always take enough time to add comments. On the other hand I still have my TPJ subscription and I don't mind if it is _possible_ to use external perl functions as long as I don't _have_to_. A really horrible vision for me would be if Zope itself or parts of it were rewritten in Perl... arghh! --Ragnar
Zopistas, This argument is all very funny. Why is it bad to be able to answer someone when they say "i use this perl script on my site, I want to use it in zope"? I would personally like this for little regexp programs. What matters is that 90% of the old-school web sites use perl as their glue, and they shouldn't have to have their sites fall apart when transitioning to zope. If it helps any, it should be obvious by now that zope is from the emacs school and not the vi school. Zope's problem domain is simply too wide to be addressed by anything but an all-inclusive approach. To me, perl is small beans, but XSLT... that sets me drooling. All sorts of other methods are fine by me, too. I highly doubt that the core codebase of Zope is going to ever be anything other than C and python, unless some other compiled language comes along that's even better & more portable than C or some lunatic decides that zope should work in jpython. ethan mindlace fremen Zopista Community Liason
Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously surprised a lot of people. I haven't seen much positive reaction here on the list. In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be quite valid indeed. After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand. [ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ] Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in support of this news. The following is just my opinion, formulated largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope announcement in a more positive light: In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python". Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java". Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of them. Zope is different. It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all about Python. However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope is about server-side *scripting*. I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part of the Zope developers. Looking over the history of Digital Creations and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood. I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of Really Big Vision. Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'. Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'. If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into its community? -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation eric@sourcegear.com
"Eric W. Sink" wrote:
After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand.
[ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ]
:-). I think there is a significant proportion of Python programmers who are Perl refugees (funny, you don't hear much about the flip-side of that equation), so this announcement was bound to rub a few raw nerves the wrong way (if you pardon the metaphor mix). I'm glad my Perl maintenance days are (mostly) behind me (where the only # in a 4K+ script was the #! invocation at the start - shudder), so I wasn't too sure what I thought when I read the announcement. But I figure DC are pretty smart guys (heck, look at Zope - I couldn't dream that up in a month of Bourbon), and so far they've been on the ball, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Heck, might even win a few more Python cultists^Wactivists^Wenthusiasts along the way. :-) (* Other well thought comments regretfully snipped *). Regards, Daryl Tester
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric W. Sink" <eric@sourcegear.com> To: "Paul Everitt" <Paul@digicool.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope [snip]
Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java".
Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of them. [snip] think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'.
Or maybe just "The Application Server/Content Management System"? Here's a tally of what we've got (* = to be released): HTTP WebDAV XML-RPC SOAP* Python C (if you really want to :) XML/XSLT* Perl* SQL (Oracle, Sybase, PostgreSQL, ...) That's a pretty broad range of support. You can attach to all sorts of good things with a system like that. Someone might look at that list and say "man, that's one powerful, flexible application platform!" Those IT folks you're referring to might say, "but we just invested $500,000 in Java based stuff". Now, I have no idea what all might be in the works at DC... but, I wouldn't be surprised if they happened to find the right partner that they might integrate some Java in with Zope. In fact, through the wonder of Open Source, they could create JavascriptMethods by borrowing from Mozilla and use some of the Apache group's work to get servlets and the like to play nice with Zope objects. I'm not trying to scare people with this made-up talk of Java. My point is that Zope is a very powerful framework that is already fairly language agnostic. It will probably benefit by having better ties to the other widely used languages. I don't know Java. But, I wouldn't be afraid to hook into a servlet that provides useful functionality. I use tools all the time that I have no desire to look inside of. Yes, I agree that Zope needs more newbie docs and APIs need to be better documented (and I do believe that those things are moving forward). But, evolution of the Zope platform is important as well... and keep in mind that DC is not doing all of the work alone here. ActiveState is involved as well (just as DC has a partnership for the XSLT stuff that is underway). Kevin
"Eric W. Sink" wrote:
Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously surprised a lot of people. I haven't seen much positive reaction here on the list.
In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be quite valid indeed. After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand.
[ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ]
Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in support of this news. The following is just my opinion, formulated largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope announcement in a more positive light:
In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python".
Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java".
Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of them.
Zope is different. It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all about Python. However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope is about server-side *scripting*.
I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part of the Zope developers. Looking over the history of Digital Creations and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood.
I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of Really Big Vision.
Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'.
Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'.
If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into its community?
Well, I think I can comment on som eof teh 'revulsion' of many of the persons on the list. Some of us have/do hang out on c.l.python and c.l.perl. We have witness _ferst_hand_ this 'community's collective 'gargabe'. TO compare the two communities, you start with how they act/ do not act as one. First place to look: usenet, the sewer. In c.l.perl, any mention of non-perl, or anything less than absolute praise for perl, will land you in a flame war the likes or which satan himself wears asbestos clothing for (and if you mention python, satan bows out due to heat). I have seen people _try_ to start flame wars on c.l.py, and fail 99% of the time. I have only once seen something close to a flame war on c.l.py in many years. And in that was due in a large part to the other person in it (those who witnessed it now who I am speaking of). I believe that at least a good portion of the reason for the negative reaction is not just perl, but also due to this 'community' we hypothetically acquire. Let's be honest, perl users tend to be people who learned/learning it because it would help get them a job, and they also tend to be of the script-kiddie variety. yes, there are good perl people, I am not denying it. But there are far, far more of the negative kind than there are the positive kind (and _they_ are already converting ;-). I can pretty much gaurantee that oce we start getting perl people on the list, doing stuff in perl, the following scenario will occur repeatedly: "I want to do this, how do I do it?" "like this...<python code>" "I don;t want to use python, I want to use the all cool lnaguage of perl" "Sorry, can't help you" "You suck, I thought I could do this in perl, and now you say I am on my own? What good is a support list without support. YOU said you SUPPORTED PERL!! I DON'T WANT to use python, why in hell would I??" We will also likely see the following at least a couple times: "Yeah, python was so cool they had to open Zope up to perl 'cuz pythn wasn't cutting it" and variations. Thus, since I doubt we can get DC to change their minds, I propose we prepare for at least the following list splits: zope-devel-python zope-devel-perl zope-devel-general zope-general zope-python zope-perl I also gaurantee that if we don't see the split, and we actually do get a sizeable portion of the perl users on these lists, we will see flamewars, and thus a decrease of Python people on the lists. Call me pessimistic, but I have _witnessed_ repeatedly, this precise situation. I am just trying to cut through the emotions, and deal with reality here. Now, for those still reading... some technical issues. Have you SEEN perl's OO code?? I have actually compared perl and python objects, and even my anti-python friends (they are decreasing very quickly) admit that perl's handling of objects stinks to high orbit. It may be a Object publishing environment, but it still needs topublish one basic type of object. Here is where I think we will see the biggest part of the prblems on the technical side. Perl's objects are of a lesser ... refinement than Python's, and interfacing the two directly is not pretty, nor easy. That is why I favor supporting perl through CORBA, let an independant system designed specifically for that 'type' of thing handle it. But that's my opinion.
Paul Everitt wrote:
Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods.
(snip) I think this is a great idea. Here's why. One of the big ideas in Zope is that objects can be written in many languages. Python methods are good for logic, DTML (and soon XSLT) methods are good for presentation, SQL is good for RDBMS queries, and so on. The strength or "goodness" of a language is based on it's suitabilty for a kind of problem *and* it's suitability for a kind of problem solver. There is no one-size-fits-all language, either for problems or problem solvers. Perl methods will be a good thing for Zope because Perl is extremely suitable for a large class of problems and problem solvers. The fact that it overlaps with Python does not really make it less a good thing, any more than the overlap of DTML and XSLT makes XSLT less than a good thing for Zope. (I used Perl *alot* several years ago before I used Python. Perl helped me solve alot of hard problems with relative ease and I am indepted to Larry Wall and others who made it possible. I happen to prefer Python personally, but I respect Perl and the people who use and maintain it.) Obviously, extensive perl libraries are a huge opportunity for Zope. In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, ..... :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332 http://www.python.org Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In article <392EFA8D.366281DE@digicool.com>, Jim Fulton <jim@digicool.com> writes
In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, ..... :)
What I would like to see first is support for Rebol ( www.rebol.com ). It's a great language for writing internet robots ( grabbing content off remote pages or ftp sites, retrieving mail, sending mail, scheduling jobs ) inter alia. Would fill a lot of the gaps that Zope has. - -- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiu<at>compkarori.co.nz http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php Powered by Interbase and Zope -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBOS5h87TRdIWzaLpMEQILLQCbBzAYZ90+UTWq1dWvm8EnOhd+k9gAoIaE kpoJVTSfQiK5eMstHi54zNSf =XWCR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Seconded, REBOL is cool! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Chiu" <anon_emouse@hotmail.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: 26 May 2000 23:37 Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
In article <392EFA8D.366281DE@digicool.com>, Jim Fulton <jim@digicool.com> writes
In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, ..... :)
What I would like to see first is support for Rebol ( www.rebol.com ). It's a great language for writing internet robots ( grabbing content off remote pages or ftp sites, retrieving mail, sending mail, scheduling jobs ) inter alia. Would fill a lot of the gaps that Zope has.
- -- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiu<at>compkarori.co.nz http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php Powered by Interbase and Zope
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1
iQA/AwUBOS5h87TRdIWzaLpMEQILLQCbBzAYZ90+UTWq1dWvm8EnOhd+k9gAoIaE kpoJVTSfQiK5eMstHi54zNSf =XWCR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
I have kept silent on this issue while watching comments fly by. I'll agree with a comment Paul made about passions being high and that can be a good thing. Disagreements are sometimes inevitable, however we do not have to be disagreeable. It seems that many here who do not share the concerns of others have left technically arguments and gone on to calling others childish or silly. It is reasonable and understandable that you may not agree with them. However to resort to such behaviour is below this community. I hope the concerns expressed by many here do not happen. However, that does not mean they can't. I like many here chose Python then Zope. I chose Python not Perl. What is taking place here and has caught many in the community off guard is somewhat of a change in what Zope is. Some have expressed that Zope is already multilingual. That is true to a certain extent. But Perl does not add to Zope capabilities that Python does not have. (IMHO) In this perspective it does not add to Zope. Python, DTML, SQL, XML, XML-RPC, XSLT, etc. are not equivalent languages. They have different scopes and capabilities. Python and Perl are reasonably equivalent in capabilities and it boils down to personal preference on the choice. This brings us back to a change in what Zope is or what Zope has been seen as. This provides an opportunity for DC and the community to really define what is Zope. This discussion needs to clarify what Zope's definition is. This will promote greater understanding and reduce misunderstandings. To this point in many peoples minds Zope has been defined as being Python. This changes things. Yes I understand Zope itself is built in and will continue to be built in Python and C. This is a paradigm shift for many here. Once this settles down, I hope this community will be stronger for it. More comments to follow. Jimmie Houchin
I'd happilly pay a few hundred bucks to be able to use Scheme (more specifically Guile with GOOPS and perhaps CMH could use this as an excuse to get finished). []s, |alo +---- -- Hack and Roll ( http://www.hackandroll.org ) News for, uh, whatever it is that we are. http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo mailto:lalo@hackandroll.org pgp key: http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo/pessoal/pgp Brazil of Darkness (RPG) --- http://zope.gf.com.br/BroDar
participants (30)
-
Andrew Kenneth Milton -
Bill Anderson -
Chris McDonough -
Chris Withers -
Dan L. Pierson -
Daryl Tester -
Denis Frère -
Eric W. Sink -
Evan Gibson -
Graham Chiu -
Heiko Stoermer -
J. Atwood -
Jim Fulton -
Jimmie Houchin -
John Chandler -
Kevin Dangoor -
Lalo Martins -
Marcel Preda -
Martijn Faassen -
Martijn Pieters -
Michael Bernstein -
Michel Pelletier -
mindlace -
Oleg Broytmann -
Paul Everitt -
Phil Harris -
Ragnar Beer -
Stephan Richter -
Steve Alexander -
Tony McDonald