Thanks! Pretty neat thing :-) I like the ducks: a-hi-ru. "Kore wa desu? Ahiru desu." It must have been something like that... p@

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]Im Auftrag von Wolfgang Strobl Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. Oktober 2000 10:58 An: zope@zope.org; zope-book@zope.org Betreff: Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

On 30 Oct 2000, 17:32 Michel Pelletier wrote:

...

Amos and I are gibbering like madmen with excitement to announce the Zope Book Beta. [...]

Great!

For my own use, I'Ve just created a fully indexed MS-Windows HTMHelp-Version, see http://www.zope.org/Members/strobl, that I want to share with others doing Zope work on that platform.

-- o ( Wolfgang.Strobl@gmd.de (+49 2241) 14-2394 /\ * GMD mbH #include _`\ `_<=== Schloss Birlinghoven, <std.disclaimer> __(_)/_(_)___.-._ 53754 Sankt Augustin, Germany ________________

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On 31 Oct 2000, at 10:39, Amos Latteier wrote:

I believe that O'Reilly doesn't want the book redistributed before it is printed.

It's gone.

I'll recheck with them.

No need to. But what is the meaning of This is the one to print out and give to your friends as christmas gifts, folks, so get crackin and start reading at." in the announcement?

Take a look at the copyright stuff info on each page.

didn't restribute it, I uploaded the same content in a different format to the very same site I got it from: www.zope.org. -- Wolfgang Strobl

On 31 Oct 2000, at 12:54, Michel Pelletier wrote:

That was a joke. Sorry.

Uh, oh. Well, my thought was as follows: people are already annoucing making PDF versions, which are a much greater potential harm to to the number of sales of a printed book.With a good pdf file, I can get to my local prinshop and get a perfect bounded book back within half an hour. On the other hand, a MS HTML help file is of little use other than having a compact, searchable file which fits well into a development environment on Windows. Frankly, I can't see how these could do any harm to selling your book. To the contrary; I tend to beleive that having a properly indexed and tightly integrated online format might even might help selling the book. For example; I have HTML help versions _and_ printed copies of the - outdated - Zope docs, and one of each from the actual howto-collection, and I'm using them both. -- Wolfgang Strobl

At 10/31/00 11:08 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

For example; I have HTML help versions _and_ printed copies of the - outdated - Zope docs, and one of each from the actual howto-collection, and I'm using them both.

Wolfgang - How about putting up your HTML help version of the howto-collection? That would be very cool. Thanks! -- Dennis Nichols nichols@tradingconnections.com

Phil Harris wrote:

Give me a few hours and I'll be knocking out the eBook and PDF versions.

By the end of the day.

Phil

Hi Phil, how do you do that? for the pdf are you dumping stuff into reportlab? Kapil

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Withers" <chrisw@nipltd.com> To: <docs@digicool.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org>; <zope-book@zope.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

...

There a PDF of it anywhere?

cheers,

Chris

Michel Pelletier wrote:

...

Amos and I are gibbering like madmen with excitement to announce the Zope Book Beta. This is the complete, technical draft of the book with all screenshots (but minus illustrations, those are on there way!). Some other things like a colophon and information about the authors is missing. The beta includes all completed chapters, the API reference, and the DTML reference. We've received over a hundred comments, corrections, and ideas from you the community and it has made a much better book. This is the one to print out and give to your friends as christmas gifts, folks, so get crackin and start reading at http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/ZB/.

Enjoy,

-Michel

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I'm researching for a project that will probably use Zope. For this project we will require a simple GIS component for display and information retrieval. I've noted three possible products so far and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with these products or with others. My interest is what worked well, what didn't and how difficult were they to use with Zope. The products I've identified as potentially useful are: MapIt, MapServer and OpenEV. So far the MapServer seems to be the most likely candidate for our use. Thanks in advance. T -- Trevor Wiens twiens@compusmart.ab.ca The significant problems that we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them. (Albert Einstein)

Hello Congratulations on getting the book to this stage!! It is very readable and I hope it is well promoted, and well received. One obvious presentation improvement I suggest is that you make ALL zope code references in the same typographic style. For example throughout most of the text you sensibly have DTML and Python examples in courier or equivalent. But in the Appendices, for example http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/ZB/AppendixA.html under sections marked 'Attributes', there is not a clear consistent distinction: encode=string MIME Content-Transfer-Encoding header, defaults to base64. Valid encoding options include base64, quoted-printable, uuencode, x-uuencode, uue, x-uue, and 7bit. If the encode attribute is set to 7bit no encoding is done on the block and the data is assumed to be in a valid MIME format. "encode=string" should display in courier also like all examples. And if possible put one extra line space after each Attribute description before the next entry. Thought this takes up a little more space, it is white space well used adn really helps one to find and absorb this crucial content better. An editorial suggestion I would make is that in the Appendices, MORE examples would be BETTER and clearer definitions and examples of the attributes arguments would really help too. Even a single one or two-line example after each 'Attributes section would be a godsend. I imagine there are lots of juicy examples in the archives. For example check sendmail, mailhost ="mailhostnamegoeshere" Also there is no mention about the sendmail quirkiness of formatting, needing space after the subject: line This is a FAQ and surely belongs in the appendix of the only Zope book. Are there others? In general for the Appendices, please check that explicitly it is clear and consistent when and if anything is returned, and when and how arguments are needed. You all know, and take all this for granted no doubt, but others truly don't. The API aspect is one that holds so many people back and so many questions about real-world use. Copious well placed examples go a long way. I know how hard it is use to make a book and how many endless fiddly time-consuming tasks there are. But it really is worth getting this right. I work for 10 years in the design and production side of book publishing. Ditto the index. I hope you push to make sure your editorial team at OReilly are really behind you on helping to produce a great index and will sweat all the details and typographic minutiae which do matter so much when you hold the final result. A classic example is 'Lingo in a Nutshell' [ORA] which has very detailed examples and excellent tables and appendices, but was marred by a cheap fast shallow index. It was author Bruce Epstein's painful learning curve. It is still the definitive LINGO book, but widely criticized for lack of serious index. Bruce later added stuff online and vowed to fix it in the next edition. As I recall from his post to the Direct-L mailing list, he said that he had not been personally very involved in the index, and as an exhausted and tired new author, he had not reckoned on what could go wrong, nor how important the index is to a static printed paper book. Very different from the dynamic online world where a few searches on google or wherever will get a handy reference, backed up by a post to xyz-mailinglist. Best wishes - Jason ________________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS['Interactive Art and Technology'].DesignDirector

----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Withers <chrisw@nipltd.com>

...

Not yet. I think that O'Reilly doesn't want us to produce any more public versions of the book until it is published. I'm double checking with them right now. Take a look at the copyright verbage on each book page to see what I'm talking about.

Kinda tough to check out/read/find mistakes in a book that's only available as a set of html pages that aren't full text searchable....

This is a really good point. Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them. How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or commercial distribution' The number of people who are likely to 'bootleg' the Zope book must be tiny. Most will want to see the book sales thrive, so that Zope grows and gets the wider recognition it deserves.And to save time and money when developing Zope projects. For such sophisticated 'free' software, a well written, well edited book is a trivial price to pay. The issue is how to get the best final copy to the printer in timely manner. Peer review now by skilled expert readers is huge advantage to be tapped. No matter how good OReilly are as publishers, I doubt they have many Zope experts in-house at ORA... Because there are not yet that many in the world! Most people are too busy anyway to be of much help. Anyone who wants to help adn has the ability to do so should be engaged now not deterred. Everyone will benefit if you act quickly now. Final stages of proofreading and tweaking are time consuming adn take many hands and many heads to get right. When done thoroughly this is the difference which makes a difference, especially for technical books. Look at how much hideous fast junk is out there in bookstores now. Look at how many books are a waste of paper and time and money, simply because they were not properly checked and tuned. good luck and best wishes - Jason

----- Original Message ----- From: Michel Pelletier <michel@digicool.com>

...

Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them.

How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or commercial distribution'

This is a good idea and probably a good compromise, but this would require us taking the time to negotiate it with O'Reilly and engineer a stx-pdf converter and pre-empt alot of work we have lined up for the book and other documentation efforts. With the existing setup, we don't have to worry about this for a couple months and we don't have to stir the shit with O'Reilly.

This is truly nuts... Sounds a like you guys are tired and just want it done and printed now. So please just let us know whom we should contact directly at OReilly. This really is not 'stiring the shit'. Publishing staff are always over worked especially copy-editors. They will appreciate some timely comments, from some [free] Zope experts to help them get their work done quicker and better. Hell, they can even use it on the blurb to help sell the book and get some nice 'OpenSource reaches the Book Publishing World'-type reviews !! I find it hard to believe given the significant role OReilly have in openSource, Python etc that they would not be happy to embrace a __tiny__ experiment in this direction.

...

The issue is how to get the best final copy to the printer in timely manner.

Well... from your perspective (and ours) but from O'Reilly's I think they're woried about *who* the first person to print that best final copy is. Those are the people they are worried about bootlegging the book, not you, they _know_ you'll buy a copy. ;) If we open content it now, someone could beat ORA to the shelves by a week and undercut a sizable percentage of sales and all they would ahve to do is put ORAs name on the cover, but they don't get any money.

I feel your pain on all issues. A couple more months and this will all go away.

A couple of months from now is exactly when the pain will be felt! You open the book and go ooops! damn how'd we miss that one..? Then the reviews come and say "Been really looking forwards to this milestone book for a long time. It is well written by two members of the core Zope team but unfortunately...." Please don't confuse controlled easy accesss for willing proofreaders, with public licensing and e-distribution models. Those CAN be sorted out later. Just as employees and freelancers working for Publishers have access to manuscripts, so should and can designated members of the Zope community. These are not annonymous strangers. I have been reading and printing out various chapters of the book from http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/ZB/ over the past month. Then saved out a bunch of the HTML files and printed to PDF. Took 'em round the corner for cheap fast b+ printout and had comb binding put on then. It was worth the $15 for print+binding just to be able to scan on planes and while I was travelling. It already gave me a much better feeling and understnding of Zope :-) - Jason ___________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS['Interactive Art and Technology']