Don't know of a good tutorial but I know there are many. I'm sure that plone.org has some good ones. In case you already know your DTML, this little howto has helped people a lot. http://www.zope.org/Members/peterbe/DTML2ZPT On 6/20/05, John Poltorak <jp@warpix.org> wrote:
Does a ZPT tutorial exist anywhere?
-- John
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 01:24:18AM +0200, Andreas Pakulat wrote:
On 20.Jun 2005 - 23:45:34, John Poltorak wrote:
Does a ZPT tutorial exist anywhere?
How about the 2 chapters in the Zope book?
I just don't find this book very helpful at all. It's written as a manual rather than tutorial and reminds me of a book which explains how to chop down a tree if you are interested in putting up some bookshelves. What I did find useful, though, was this worked example of how to put together a simple application:- http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition/SimpleExamples.stx#1-6 That was much more useful than anything else I've come across so. Just wish there were a few more examples.
Andreas
--
-- John
John Poltorak wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 01:24:18AM +0200, Andreas Pakulat wrote:
On 20.Jun 2005 - 23:45:34, John Poltorak wrote:
Does a ZPT tutorial exist anywhere?
How about the 2 chapters in the Zope book?
I just don't find this book very helpful at all. It's written as a manual rather than tutorial and reminds me of a book which explains how to chop down a tree if you are interested in putting up some bookshelves.
What I did find useful, though, was this worked example of how to put together a simple application:-
http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition/SimpleExamples.stx#1-6
That was much more useful than anything else I've come across so. Just wish there were a few more examples.
Andreas
--
John, Someone put this up some time ago. Lots of Dtml->Zpt examples. Sounds like you might wanna take a look. http://www.zope.org/Members/peterbe/DTML2ZPT/#example1 David
Hi. I have a nice scheme for my ordering, sorting and batch paging my summary columns for objects and sql data but I have been using urls like employee_edit_form?employee_id=42&start:int=2&sort=employee&reverse:int= 0 in my lists up till now. These would be tal:attributes in my zpt, (a string) for href attribute so that you click to edit the appropriate record. I have hidden fields in my edit form that accept the start, sort, and reverse in the request so that when the edit is done there is a response.redirect to pass user back to the index_html on the proper page in the batch. I am trying to use the Allow "Simple" Direct Traversal under the Advanced tab for ZSQL queries to give me nice urls when passing an id parameter to a zsql query with results in an edit form. URLs like: /employee_by_id/42/employee_edit_form This works nicely except I need the edit_form to also get my start, sort and reverse parameters and I am hoping there might be some way of setting the request in the edit_form so it is possible to use this nice zsql traversal feature. Can someone suggest a solution that would not involve direct parameter passing in the url - but in someway of setting the request so when the edit_form is called these other parameters are available in the request. Note that start, order and reverse are available variables in my index_html and change based on the batch page and column heading urls selected. I have tried using something like <tal:define="dummy python:REQUEST.set('tmp_sort', sort) to see if I could set tmp_sort in index_form and when edit_form called tmp_sort might appear in the request. Alternatively is there some type of javascript that might help with this to either pass the remaining parameters or use history in some way? On a second note, can someone advise me of what I need to place inside the <dtml-comment> area in a filesystem zsql query so that it will use simple direct traversal. Many thanks, David
I have gone over the zope book to see what I can do about calling a sql with a form and getting three additional parameters in the request and am wanting this to get better looking urls that calling the parameters directly in the url. I asked a similar question yesterday but perhaps it was not clear enough about what asking. It is really a traversal question and how to string together a sql query with a zpt form that also requires parameters from the request namespace. I can call my zsql method and then my edit form like this: /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form or with simple direct traversal on the zsql method: /employee_by_id/42/employee_edit_form Problem is I need three other parameters in the request for my edit form to satisfy my sorting so when the edit form returns it is back on the same batch page Parameters passed in traversal go into the request namespace according to the zope book so was hoping for something similar to this which doesn't work - and I can't see how it could. /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form/start/2/sort/ employee/reverse/0 The zope book examples are with python scripts so am not sure whether this is possible with a ZPT that also requires parameters from the request or will I need a script to be called in the path somewhere to pick up the results of the query and then pass parameters to the form - something like: /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/some_other_script/start/2/sort/employee/ reverse/0/employee_edit_form where some_other_script would be a script python. Any hints to help me understand what can be done with traversal like this would be appreciated since I would rather have nice urls instead of stringing parameters directly in the url with all the ?= and &'s. Regards, David
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Pratt" <fairwinds@eastlink.ca>
I have gone over the zope book to see what I can do about calling a sql with a form and getting three additional parameters in the request and am wanting this to get better looking urls that calling the parameters directly in the url. I asked a similar question yesterday but perhaps it was not clear enough about what asking. It is really a traversal question and how to string together a sql query with a zpt form that also requires parameters from the request namespace.
I can call my zsql method and then my edit form like this: /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form
or with simple direct traversal on the zsql method: /employee_by_id/42/employee_edit_form
Problem is I need three other parameters in the request for my edit form to satisfy my sorting so when the edit form returns it is back on the same batch page
Parameters passed in traversal go into the request namespace according to the zope book so was hoping for something similar to this which doesn't work - and I can't see how it could.
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form/start/2/sort/ employee/reverse/0
The zope book examples are with python scripts so am not sure whether this is possible with a ZPT that also requires parameters from the request or will I need a script to be called in the path somewhere to pick up the results of the query and then pass parameters to the form - something like:
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/some_other_script/start/2/sort/employee/ reverse/0/employee_edit_form
where some_other_script would be a script python. Any hints to help me understand what can be done with traversal like this would be appreciated since I would rather have nice urls instead of stringing parameters directly in the url with all the ?= and &'s.
I am sure you don't want to hear this, but that's what '? = &' are for. If you really want to make your life complicated you could look into storing the parameters in cookies or session data, but those are pretty ugly work-arounds just so you can have pretty urls. Jonathan
Hi Jonathan. Thank you for your reply. The ? = & don't make for very friendly or future proof urls. I have thought of this possibility you have suggested but thought there might be a way to do this with traversal. I read a tutorial by Chris McDonough getting rid of the ? = & appeared to be one of the goals of using zope's traversal. I am exploring the possibilities of getting rid of the ? = & in my application. Regards, David On Wednesday, June 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Jonathan wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Pratt" <fairwinds@eastlink.ca>
I have gone over the zope book to see what I can do about calling a sql with a form and getting three additional parameters in the request and am wanting this to get better looking urls that calling the parameters directly in the url. I asked a similar question yesterday but perhaps it was not clear enough about what asking. It is really a traversal question and how to string together a sql query with a zpt form that also requires parameters from the request namespace.
I can call my zsql method and then my edit form like this: /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form
or with simple direct traversal on the zsql method: /employee_by_id/42/employee_edit_form
Problem is I need three other parameters in the request for my edit form to satisfy my sorting so when the edit form returns it is back on the same batch page
Parameters passed in traversal go into the request namespace according to the zope book so was hoping for something similar to this which doesn't work - and I can't see how it could.
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form/start/2/sort/ employee/reverse/0
The zope book examples are with python scripts so am not sure whether this is possible with a ZPT that also requires parameters from the request or will I need a script to be called in the path somewhere to pick up the results of the query and then pass parameters to the form - something like:
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/some_other_script/start/2/sort/ employee/ reverse/0/employee_edit_form
where some_other_script would be a script python. Any hints to help me understand what can be done with traversal like this would be appreciated since I would rather have nice urls instead of stringing parameters directly in the url with all the ?= and &'s.
I am sure you don't want to hear this, but that's what '? = &' are for. If you really want to make your life complicated you could look into storing the parameters in cookies or session data, but those are pretty ugly work-arounds just so you can have pretty urls.
Jonathan
I have never used traversal into zsql methods simply because I don't want to expose geeky things like "employee_by_id" to the user. People should be able to find out what you call your ZSQL methods. My suggestion is to consider a more controlled solution. About having request variables in the URL I suggest you download and study the code of the IssueTrackerProduct. Look for a method called get_environ and __before_bobobase_traverse__ Then one gets URLs like this: http://demo.issuetrackerproduct.com/ListIssues/sortorder-urgency/reverse-tru... which is translated in get_environ() to http://demo.issuetrackerproduct.com/ListIssues?sortorder=urgency&reverse=tru... On 6/22/05, David Pratt <fairwinds@eastlink.ca> wrote:
I have gone over the zope book to see what I can do about calling a sql with a form and getting three additional parameters in the request and am wanting this to get better looking urls that calling the parameters directly in the url. I asked a similar question yesterday but perhaps it was not clear enough about what asking. It is really a traversal question and how to string together a sql query with a zpt form that also requires parameters from the request namespace.
I can call my zsql method and then my edit form like this: /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form
or with simple direct traversal on the zsql method: /employee_by_id/42/employee_edit_form
Problem is I need three other parameters in the request for my edit form to satisfy my sorting so when the edit form returns it is back on the same batch page
Parameters passed in traversal go into the request namespace according to the zope book so was hoping for something similar to this which doesn't work - and I can't see how it could.
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form/start/2/sort/ employee/reverse/0
The zope book examples are with python scripts so am not sure whether this is possible with a ZPT that also requires parameters from the request or will I need a script to be called in the path somewhere to pick up the results of the query and then pass parameters to the form - something like:
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/some_other_script/start/2/sort/employee/ reverse/0/employee_edit_form
where some_other_script would be a script python. Any hints to help me understand what can be done with traversal like this would be appreciated since I would rather have nice urls instead of stringing parameters directly in the url with all the ?= and &'s.
Regards, David _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
Hi Peter. This is very interesting. I will look at the code! I agree with you about exposing the zsql methods and also I tend to use a naming convention for zsql methods might even stick out more. Many thanks for your reply. Regards, David On Wednesday, June 22, 2005, at 12:27 PM, Peter Bengtsson wrote:
I have never used traversal into zsql methods simply because I don't want to expose geeky things like "employee_by_id" to the user. People should be able to find out what you call your ZSQL methods. My suggestion is to consider a more controlled solution.
About having request variables in the URL I suggest you download and study the code of the IssueTrackerProduct. Look for a method called get_environ and __before_bobobase_traverse__
Then one gets URLs like this: http://demo.issuetrackerproduct.com/ListIssues/sortorder-urgency/ reverse-true which is translated in get_environ() to http://demo.issuetrackerproduct.com/ ListIssues?sortorder=urgency&reverse=true
On 6/22/05, David Pratt <fairwinds@eastlink.ca> wrote:
I have gone over the zope book to see what I can do about calling a sql with a form and getting three additional parameters in the request and am wanting this to get better looking urls that calling the parameters directly in the url. I asked a similar question yesterday but perhaps it was not clear enough about what asking. It is really a traversal question and how to string together a sql query with a zpt form that also requires parameters from the request namespace.
I can call my zsql method and then my edit form like this: /employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form
or with simple direct traversal on the zsql method: /employee_by_id/42/employee_edit_form
Problem is I need three other parameters in the request for my edit form to satisfy my sorting so when the edit form returns it is back on the same batch page
Parameters passed in traversal go into the request namespace according to the zope book so was hoping for something similar to this which doesn't work - and I can't see how it could.
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/employee_edit_form/start/2/sort/ employee/reverse/0
The zope book examples are with python scripts so am not sure whether this is possible with a ZPT that also requires parameters from the request or will I need a script to be called in the path somewhere to pick up the results of the query and then pass parameters to the form - something like:
/employee_by_id/employee_id/42/some_other_script/start/2/sort/ employee/ reverse/0/employee_edit_form
where some_other_script would be a script python. Any hints to help me understand what can be done with traversal like this would be appreciated since I would rather have nice urls instead of stringing parameters directly in the url with all the ?= and &'s.
Regards, David _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
How about the 2 chapters in the Zope book?
I just don't find this book very helpful at all. It's written as a manual rather than tutorial and reminds me of a book which explains how to chop down a tree if you are interested in putting up some bookshelves.
What I did find useful, though, was this worked example of how to put together a simple application:-
http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition/SimpleExamples.stx#1-6
That was much more useful than anything else I've come across so. Just wish there were a few more examples.
Interesting. If you like examples, be sure to get familiar with Zopelabs.com (zope cookbook)
Andreas
--
-- John
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 07:04:48PM +0100, Peter Bengtsson wrote:
How about the 2 chapters in the Zope book?
I just don't find this book very helpful at all. It's written as a manual rather than tutorial and reminds me of a book which explains how to chop down a tree if you are interested in putting up some bookshelves.
What I did find useful, though, was this worked example of how to put together a simple application:-
http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition/SimpleExamples.stx#1-6
That was much more useful than anything else I've come across so. Just wish there were a few more examples.
Interesting. If you like examples, be sure to get familiar with Zopelabs.com (zope cookbook)
It probably is very useful, but I know I'd get hopelessly lost because there is just so much stuff on it. Most of the newbie stuff about macros is probably quite old by now so I doubt whether I'd find it with a sequential browse through the Cookbook. It's disappointing to find that the link from Newbies under the ZOPE section does not function. What I really need is something like a ZPT macro which defines a header and footer and leaves a slot in the middle for my own content. I don't expect to be able to write my own macro for quite a while - too many pitfalls... I'm not even sure is that is how I should be approaching writing a home page.
Andreas
--
-- John
-- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
-- John
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 07:29:20PM +0100, John Poltorak wrote: re. zopelabs.com:
It probably is very useful, but I know I'd get hopelessly lost because there is just so much stuff on it.
So you prefer to ignore it? Granted, zopelabs.com has flaws. It's harder to find stuff than it should be. Nevertheless, browsing that site, along with reading the Zope book (the old print version), was instrumental in getting me from knowing nothing, to the point where I became a full-time zope developer. We didn't even have the great resource of zopewiki.org back then. Use that too, zopewiki is your friend. There are tons of good links from http://zopewiki.org/PageTemplates In general, I don't know how you expect to make any progress when your typical response to the (many) suggestions you receive on this list is "I can't read that, it's too much work".
Most of the newbie stuff about macros is probably quite old by now so I doubt whether I'd find it with a sequential browse through the Cookbook.
"probably"? "doubt"?
It's disappointing to find that the link from Newbies under the ZOPE section does not function.
True that. I don't know what happened to zopenewbies.net.
What I really need is something like a ZPT macro which defines a header and footer and leaves a slot in the middle for my own content. I don't expect to be able to write my own macro for quite a while - too many pitfalls... I'm not even sure is that is how I should be approaching writing a home page.
Have you tried the tutorial that comes with Zope? It includes at least one simple example of macros - see lesson 4. Not sure how to run the tutorial? The default index_html for a new Zope server tells you: """There is a built-in interactive Zope Tutorial which gets you started with some simple tasks using the Zope managment interface. To use the tutorial, go to any Folder and select Zope Tutorial from the add list and click the Add button. Provide a name for the tutorial and click Add to begin working with the tutorial. """ -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 03:15:33PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 07:29:20PM +0100, John Poltorak wrote: re. zopelabs.com:
It probably is very useful, but I know I'd get hopelessly lost because there is just so much stuff on it.
So you prefer to ignore it?
Just how much time should you spend on something when you are deriving no benefit just increasing frustration?
Granted, zopelabs.com has flaws. It's harder to find stuff than it should be. Nevertheless, browsing that site, along with reading the Zope book (the old print version), was instrumental in getting me from knowing nothing, to the point where I became a full-time zope developer. We didn't even have the great resource of zopewiki.org back then. Use that too, zopewiki is your friend. There are tons of good links from http://zopewiki.org/PageTemplates
Thanks. I'll check that.
In general, I don't know how you expect to make any progress when your typical response to the (many) suggestions you receive on this list is "I can't read that, it's too much work".
If I spend a couple of days on something and make no progress, I'd say it's 'too much work'. Wouldn't you. I was on a course over the weekend where ordinary people in their 70's with no technical ability were knocking together websites in just a few hours with no prior training and no understanding of the underlying concepts involved. Why should Zope be just as easy?
Most of the newbie stuff about macros is probably quite old by now so I doubt whether I'd find it with a sequential browse through the Cookbook.
"probably"? "doubt"?
It's disappointing to find that the link from Newbies under the ZOPE section does not function.
True that. I don't know what happened to zopenewbies.net.
What I really need is something like a ZPT macro which defines a header and footer and leaves a slot in the middle for my own content. I don't expect to be able to write my own macro for quite a while - too many pitfalls... I'm not even sure is that is how I should be approaching writing a home page.
Have you tried the tutorial that comes with Zope? It includes at least one simple example of macros - see lesson 4.
Not sure how to run the tutorial? The default index_html for a new Zope server tells you:
"""There is a built-in interactive Zope Tutorial which gets you started with some simple tasks using the Zope managment interface. To use the tutorial, go to any Folder and select Zope Tutorial from the add list and click the Add button. Provide a name for the tutorial and click Add to begin working with the tutorial. """
There is a quantum leap between the tutorial and being able to do anything useful with a website. What the tutorial needs to to handhold you through putting together something like the homepage of zope.org.
--
Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
-- John
John, If you spent more time just *learning* Zope and HTML, etc and less time rationalizing your lack of progress everyone would be happy. David John Poltorak wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 03:15:33PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 07:29:20PM +0100, John Poltorak wrote: re. zopelabs.com:
It probably is very useful, but I know I'd get hopelessly lost because there is just so much stuff on it.
So you prefer to ignore it?
Just how much time should you spend on something when you are deriving no benefit just increasing frustration?
Granted, zopelabs.com has flaws. It's harder to find stuff than it should be. Nevertheless, browsing that site, along with reading the Zope book (the old print version), was instrumental in getting me from knowing nothing, to the point where I became a full-time zope developer. We didn't even have the great resource of zopewiki.org back then. Use that too, zopewiki is your friend. There are tons of good links from http://zopewiki.org/PageTemplates
Thanks. I'll check that.
In general, I don't know how you expect to make any progress when your typical response to the (many) suggestions you receive on this list is "I can't read that, it's too much work".
If I spend a couple of days on something and make no progress, I'd say it's 'too much work'. Wouldn't you.
I was on a course over the weekend where ordinary people in their 70's with no technical ability were knocking together websites in just a few hours with no prior training and no understanding of the underlying concepts involved. Why should Zope be just as easy?
Most of the newbie stuff about macros is probably quite old by now so I doubt whether I'd find it with a sequential browse through the Cookbook.
"probably"? "doubt"?
It's disappointing to find that the link from Newbies under the ZOPE section does not function.
True that. I don't know what happened to zopenewbies.net.
What I really need is something like a ZPT macro which defines a header and footer and leaves a slot in the middle for my own content. I don't expect to be able to write my own macro for quite a while - too many pitfalls... I'm not even sure is that is how I should be approaching writing a home page.
Have you tried the tutorial that comes with Zope? It includes at least one simple example of macros - see lesson 4.
Not sure how to run the tutorial? The default index_html for a new Zope server tells you:
"""There is a built-in interactive Zope Tutorial which gets you started with some simple tasks using the Zope managment interface. To use the tutorial, go to any Folder and select Zope Tutorial from the add list and click the Add button. Provide a name for the tutorial and click Add to begin working with the tutorial. """
There is a quantum leap between the tutorial and being able to do anything useful with a website. What the tutorial needs to to handhold you through putting together something like the homepage of zope.org.
--
Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
John Poltorak wrote:
If I spend a couple of days on something and make no progress, I'd say it's 'too much work'. Wouldn't you.
Yes
I was on a course over the weekend where ordinary people in their 70's with no technical ability were knocking together websites in just a few hours with no prior training and no understanding of the underlying concepts involved. Why should Zope be just as easy?
Because Zope is hard. You can make some great sites/applications with Zope but for all except the very simplest you need . advanced understanding of html and xml or . a thorough grounding in programming principles or . a working knowledge of Python - and preferably all three. Most (not all) of the people who hang out here have all three of these skill sets, and like many skilled people, they find it hard to understand that the skills they have seem arcane to beginners. You should also understand that nobody (AFAIK) is 'them' with an interest in making Zope easy and helping you. You depend on the kindness of strangers, so politeness and gratitude pay. In addition, Zope is heading fast into even less friendly territory. DTML, which is technically 'mucky' but reasonably easy to grasp for non-programmers, is increasingly deprecated. Through-the-web editing likewise. I'm not saying these trends are bad, just that they are happening, they make the learning curve steeper, and that they lock out almost all casual users unless they have the skills noted above. The alternative in the Zope world is Plone, where you can get a site up and rolling in very little time (as long as you are happy for it to look and operate like almost every other Plone site on the planet). or there's PHP, where the communities are probably more newbie-friendly and there are loads of tutorials. or you could decide that Zope does some stuff which you must have, in which case David H's stereotypical response
If you spent more time just *learning* Zope and HTML, etc and less time rationalizing your lack of progress everyone would be happy.
is appropriate. Good luck. -- Mark Barratt Text Matters Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ______________________________________________________ phone +44 (0)118 986 8313 email markb@textmatters.com skype mark_barratt web http://www.textmatters.com
Hi,
In addition, Zope is heading fast into even less friendly territory. DTML, which is technically 'mucky' but reasonably easy to grasp for non-programmers, is increasingly deprecated.
I just started to learn Zope recently. I choose dtml over page templates to learn as it => seemed to me easier (maybe as I am a non-programmer); => has the possibility to build dynamic SQL queries; => was written in the Book to exist forever. I would like to know that 'increasingly deprecated' means by everybody (I mean here: in the www-programmers-word), or just by Zope. Does this mean that it would be better to deep into ztemplates? In this case what are the alternatives to build sql queries on an easy way? Thanks in advance, Tamas -- Tamas Hegedus | phone: (1) 919-966 0329 UNC - Biochem & Biophys | fax: 5007A Thurston-Bowles Bldg | mailto:hegedus@med.unc.edu Chapel Hill, NC, 27599-7248 | http://www.biomembrane.hu/cv/hegeduse.htm
On 21 Jun 2005, at 23:23, Tamas Hegedus wrote:
Hi,
In addition, Zope is heading fast into even less friendly territory. DTML, which is technically 'mucky' but reasonably easy to grasp for non-programmers,
is increasingly deprecated.
I just started to learn Zope recently. I choose dtml over page templates to learn as it => seemed to me easier (maybe as I am a non-programmer); => has the possibility to build dynamic SQL queries; => was written in the Book to exist forever.
I would like to know that 'increasingly deprecated' means by everybody (I mean here: in the www-programmers-word), or just by Zope.
That's FUD and not true. DTML is not being deprecated, period. Don't believe anyone who says that. Everyone should choose the tool they work with best, and DTML is suitable for many people. There's more people who choose to use ZPT nowadays, but that does not mean DTML will be deprecated. jens
--On 21. Juni 2005 23:04:12 +0100 Mark Barratt <markb@textmatters.com> wrote:
or there's PHP, where the communities are probably more newbie-friendly and there are loads of tutorials.
Don't compare PHP with Zope. PHP is a tiny language compared to the fat Zope frameworks. Working with Zope on the scripter level (ZPT, DTMl, ZSQL) requires similar skills as a PHP programmer. If you want to go beyond you have approach open-minded and come a with some solid knowledge in programming and understanding architectural issues in Zope. But when I read some questions here then I have the impression that people except that Zope solves their problems although neither they don't understand the problems themselves nor have the basic skills to reach the goal. That's not a but being newbie-friendly but one can expect as certain level of knowledge when you're working with Zope...e.g. the knowledge how HTML works (that's something kids learn at school nowadays). -aj
Andreas Jung wrote:
--On 21. Juni 2005 23:04:12 +0100 Mark Barratt <markb@textmatters.com> wrote:
or there's PHP, where the communities are probably more newbie-friendly and there are loads of tutorials.
Don't compare PHP with Zope. PHP is a tiny language compared to the fat Zope frameworks. Working with Zope on the scripter level (ZPT, DTMl, ZSQL) requires similar skills as a PHP programmer. If you want to go beyond you have approach open-minded and come a with some solid knowledge in programming and understanding architectural issues in Zope. But when I read some questions here then I have the impression that people except that Zope solves their problems although neither they don't understand the problems themselves nor have the basic skills to reach the goal. That's not a but being newbie-friendly but one can expect as certain level of knowledge when you're working with Zope...e.g. the knowledge how HTML works (that's something kids learn at school nowadays).
I agree with all this, though I suspect you underestimate how little many newcomers know, and not just about HTML, where they may have been inflicted with Front Page or learned in Dreamweaver, where you don't have to either write code or do things 'properly'. But also about the big leap required to get from <title>Something</title> to <title tal:content="template/title|context/title">Untitled Document</title>. I think we (the Zope community) should try to be clearer in telling newcomers what the 'entry requirements' are. -- Mark Barratt Text Matters Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ______________________________________________________ phone +44 (0)118 986 8313 email markb@textmatters.com web http://www.textmatters.com
The Zope Book says this in its preface FWIW: To make effective use of the book, you should know how to use a web browser and you should have a basic understanding of HTML (Hyper Text Markup Language) and URLs (Uniform Resource Locators). You don't need to be a highly-skilled programmer in order to use Zope, but some programming background (particularly object-oriented programming) will be extremely helpful. On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 09:04 +0100, Mark Barratt wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote:
--On 21. Juni 2005 23:04:12 +0100 Mark Barratt <markb@textmatters.com> wrote:
or there's PHP, where the communities are probably more newbie-friendly and there are loads of tutorials.
Don't compare PHP with Zope. PHP is a tiny language compared to the fat Zope frameworks. Working with Zope on the scripter level (ZPT, DTMl, ZSQL) requires similar skills as a PHP programmer. If you want to go beyond you have approach open-minded and come a with some solid knowledge in programming and understanding architectural issues in Zope. But when I read some questions here then I have the impression that people except that Zope solves their problems although neither they don't understand the problems themselves nor have the basic skills to reach the goal. That's not a but being newbie-friendly but one can expect as certain level of knowledge when you're working with Zope...e.g. the knowledge how HTML works (that's something kids learn at school nowadays).
I agree with all this, though I suspect you underestimate how little many newcomers know, and not just about HTML, where they may have been inflicted with Front Page or learned in Dreamweaver, where you don't have to either write code or do things 'properly'. But also about the big leap required to get from <title>Something</title> to <title tal:content="template/title|context/title">Untitled Document</title>.
I think we (the Zope community) should try to be clearer in telling newcomers what the 'entry requirements' are.
I think we (the Zope community) should try to be clearer in telling newcomers what the 'entry requirements' are.
My preference is to "lie" about the complexity. Newcomers are welcoming it much more then. Because if you say it is easy people will blame themselfs if they get stuck and to avoid embarrasment they will try a little harder. Try giving someone a logic puzzle and say "it's dirt easy, it'll take you 2 minutes" and they'll try really hard. If you say "don't bother because you need a basketballsized brain to do" they will give up and neither learn nor attempt. Let's keep the fluff around the meat welcoming. So instead of "You must have previous knowledge of XHTML 1.0" we can say "Previous experience of HTML will help understanding how ZPT's work but it's not a requirement" -- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 11:04:12PM +0100, Mark Barratt wrote:
John Poltorak wrote:
I was on a course over the weekend where ordinary people in their 70's with no technical ability were knocking together websites in just a few hours with no prior training and no understanding of the underlying concepts involved. Why should Zope be just as easy?
Because Zope is hard. You can make some great sites/applications with Zope but for all except the very simplest you need
. advanced understanding of html and xml or . a thorough grounding in programming principles or . a working knowledge of Python
- and preferably all three.
Whilst Zope can be used for developing extremely complex sites, that shouldn't preclude it as a development tool for simple sites. I think expertise only develops through extended usage of Zope, but there is just so much to learn, although I don't see a need to be an expert in numerous fields before touching Zope.
Most (not all) of the people who hang out here have all three of these skill sets, and like many skilled people, they find it hard to understand that the skills they have seem arcane to beginners. You should also understand that nobody (AFAIK) is 'them' with an interest in making Zope easy and helping you. You depend on the kindness of strangers, so politeness and gratitude pay.
Yes, I am aware of this. I also think that this list is not really appropriate for newbies, but in the absence of an alternative, this is where I ask my newbie questions.
In addition, Zope is heading fast into even less friendly territory. DTML, which is technically 'mucky' but reasonably easy to grasp for non-programmers, is increasingly deprecated. Through-the-web editing likewise. I'm not saying these trends are bad, just that they are happening, they make the learning curve steeper, and that they lock out almost all casual users unless they have the skills noted above.
The alternative in the Zope world is Plone, where you can get a site up and rolling in very little time (as long as you are happy for it to look and operate like almost every other Plone site on the planet).
I looked at Plone but it is way too slow for the server I'm using. Besides that customisation looks like another learning cliff.
or there's PHP, where the communities are probably more newbie-friendly and there are loads of tutorials.
I'm sufficiently aware of Zope to know it provides a far more comprehensive build environment than PHP ever will and I would like to adopt it as my platform of choice, but it would be nice if the ZOPE support community was as newbie-friendly as the PHP crowd. Loads of tutorials and worked examples would be nice too. Reading a manual is no substitute for being shown how to build a web page using ZOPE and just reading through dozens of isolated examples of ZPT techniques makes progress very slow. I would much rather see a tutorial which starts of with a relatively complex but easily reproducible template which creates an interesting page, but then proceeds to de-construct what it does and how it does it.
or you could decide that Zope does some stuff which you must have, in which case David H's stereotypical response
If you spent more time just *learning* Zope and HTML, etc and less time rationalizing your lack of progress everyone would be happy.
is appropriate.
I only need to rationlise it when people constantly keep telling me to read the Zope Book as if that is the solution to everything. Fortunately there are a few people here who can still remember suffering the same plight as I am currently in an I'm grateful to them for their help.
Good luck.
-- Mark Barratt Text Matters
Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ______________________________________________________ phone +44 (0)118 986 8313 email markb@textmatters.com skype mark_barratt web http://www.textmatters.com
-- John
+-------[ John Poltorak ]---------------------- | On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 11:04:12PM +0100, Mark Barratt wrote: | > [Snip] | > Most (not all) of the people who hang out here have all three of these | > skill sets, and like many skilled people, they find it hard to | > understand that the skills they have seem arcane to beginners. You | > should also understand that nobody (AFAIK) is 'them' with an interest in | > making Zope easy and helping you. You depend on the kindness of | > strangers, so politeness and gratitude pay. | | Yes, I am aware of this. I also think that this list is not really | appropriate for newbies, but in the absence of an alternative, this is | where I ask my newbie questions. There's also #zope on irc.freenode.net, although you have to put up with a certain amount of heckling :-) People are willing to give you direction, but, will also tell you to consult the zope book. If you let them, they will also completely redesign your application for you so it fits better with the way they think it should work (so don't let them do that to you :-) Even though #zope is sometimes a harsh mistress, it makes me proud to see people who have survived it, helping people on the mailing lists themselves now. Oh, it also pays to be patient, while people might not be talking in a flurry of activity, someone usually has at least half-an-eye on the channel and will respond to you eventually. -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
I'm sufficiently aware of Zope to know it provides a far more comprehensive build environment than PHP ever will and I would like to adopt it as my platform of choice, but it would be nice if the ZOPE support community was as newbie-friendly as the PHP crowd. Loads of tutorials and worked examples would be nice too. Reading a manual is no substitute for being shown how to build a web page using ZOPE and just reading through dozens of isolated examples of ZPT techniques makes progress very slow. I would much rather see a tutorial which starts of with a relatively complex but easily reproducible template which creates an interesting page, but then proceeds to de-construct what it does and how it does it.
just in case you've missed it, open zmi add "Zope Tutorial" go through it write up your exp for other new users jumping in! hth
or you could decide that Zope does some stuff which you must have, in which case David H's stereotypical response
If you spent more time just *learning* Zope and HTML, etc and less time rationalizing your lack of progress everyone would be happy.
is appropriate.
I only need to rationlise it when people constantly keep telling me to read the Zope Book as if that is the solution to everything. Fortunately there are a few people here who can still remember suffering the same plight as I am currently in an I'm grateful to them for their help.
Good luck.
-- Mark Barratt Text Matters
Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ______________________________________________________ phone +44 (0)118 986 8313 email markb@textmatters.com skype mark_barratt web http://www.textmatters.com
-- John
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-- http://myzope.kedai.com.my - my-zope org
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:10:06PM +0100, John Poltorak wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 03:15:33PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 07:29:20PM +0100, John Poltorak wrote: re. zopelabs.com:
It probably is very useful, but I know I'd get hopelessly lost because there is just so much stuff on it.
So you prefer to ignore it?
Just how much time should you spend on something when you are deriving no benefit just increasing frustration?
Sometimes, answering questions on the mailing list feels exactly like that :-P
I was on a course over the weekend where ordinary people in their 70's with no technical ability were knocking together websites in just a few hours with no prior training and no understanding of the underlying concepts involved. Why should Zope be just as easy?
I highly doubt the stuff they were "knocking together" was a sophisticated application, e.g. anything on the order of CMFDefault, not to mention CPS or Plone. There's a big difference between developing web apps and slapping together some static HTML.
There is a quantum leap between the tutorial and being able to do anything useful with a website. What the tutorial needs to to handhold you through putting together something like the homepage of zope.org.
That would be an immense tutorial! There are some case studies of similar sites in Andy McKay's excellent "Plone Book". But they depend on reading and understanding many chapters before you get that far. Jon, I know this is frustrating for you. You are encountering the (in)famous "Z-shaped learning curve". You have hit the upslope. At this point, the trivial stuff (mostly) makes sense to you, but there's a vast-looking chasm between where you are and where you want to be. We've all been there. It *does* get better. Really. But it can take months of perseverance to reach the other side. And there's not really any way to skip the hard part. You might find this interesting. It was written by Chris McDonough years ago (back in the pre-ZPT days). http://www.zope.org/Members/mcdonc/HowTos/gainenlightenment -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
Everyone, I think the ZPT tutorials are excellent. Both "Using Page Templates" and "Advanced Page Templates" are worth reading more than once. David Andreas Jung wrote:
--On 20. Juni 2005 23:45:34 +0100 John Poltorak <jp@warpix.org> wrote:
Does a ZPT tutorial exist anywhere?
Aren't the *three* ZPT chapters in the Zope Book good enough?
-aj
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Poltorak wrote:
Does a ZPT tutorial exist anywhere?
How about: http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles Specifically: http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles/ZPT1 http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles/ZPT2 There's something odd about the rendering of the second one, but it's all there in the source. It's a shame these aren't done anymore. See also: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZPT/SimpleTutorial http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Zope/ZPT-Basics-part-1 http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/zpt All of which were found from the first page of: http://www.google.com/search?q=zpt+tutorial --jcc -- "Building Websites with Plone" http://plonebook.packtpub.com/ Enfold Systems, LLC http://www.enfoldsystems.com
participants (15)
-
Andreas Jung -
Andreas Pakulat -
Andrew Milton -
Bakhtiar A Hamid -
Chris McDonough -
David H -
David Pratt -
J Cameron Cooper -
Jens Vagelpohl -
John Poltorak -
Jonathan -
Mark Barratt -
Paul Winkler -
Peter Bengtsson -
Tamas Hegedus