I just read the chapter on External Methods. Since I am a big PYTHON fan, I love this feature. I believe now: Zope is what Cold Fusion wants to be. It is so much better designed. The idea that I need to write a DLL to get Programming Language Level feature support annoys me to death. stephan -- Stephan Richter iXL - Software Designer and Engineer
that's an interesting point. i have this ongoing discussion with one of my best friends who does webdesign and web-programming (nothing on a real programming language level like perl or python) for a living. he swears by cold fusion. now, is zope really what cold fusion wants to be? i have to plead ignorance when it comes to using cold fusion, i never tried it. from what this friend keeps telling me it looks like cold fusion allows you to do the fancy shmancy graphics stuff pretty well with WYSIWIG editors and such. i don't think that's the road zope is going itself, zope as i see it is more about enabling, programming, and basically being the workhorse back-end to those graphics. of course this friend and i have discussed this quite often and we kid each other about what our favorite products can and can't do. in terms of the ability to use real programming, like zope, he says he doesn't want to get into it, or even shouldn't have to. for him it's the ability to present a winning design and do some point and click to connect to the database. time is money. i on the other hand love that programming stuff and can't stop having new and neat ideas about what to program. i think cold fusion and zope have a much-different philosophy. it's really hard to compare the two. just my $0.02 :) jens Jens Vagelpohl Systems Administrator Washtenaw Development Council
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Stephan Richter Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 19:29 To: zope@zope.org Subject: [Zope] External Methods
I just read the chapter on External Methods. Since I am a big PYTHON fan, I love this feature. I believe now: Zope is what Cold Fusion wants to be. It is so much better designed. The idea that I need to write a DLL to get Programming Language Level feature support annoys me to death.
stephan -- Stephan Richter iXL - Software Designer and Engineer
You have a good point, but I had Cold Fusion training and I think Cold Fusion is very limiting. I am working for iXL (as you can see on my email address), one of the five largest Web programming companies, and we have fuss about Cold Fusion all the time. I believe that we as professional web developers should be able to speak a real programming language such as Python. When I write a web page i want to do everything I need to do. Another point is, that tasks never get easier. Just imagine a client comes back half a year after deployment and tells you that you increased his revenue by 400% and he now wants a new feature. I saw it happen, that the developer was unable to accomplish that because Cold Fusion (same for similar products) did not do it, and usually these type of programmers do not know enough to write DLLs. How bad does that look in front of a client? I try not to start a war called Zope vs. Cold Fusion. I just try to lay out some facts. :) stephan On Tue, 03 Aug 1999, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
that's an interesting point. i have this ongoing discussion with one of my best friends who does webdesign and web-programming (nothing on a real programming language level like perl or python) for a living. he swears by cold fusion.
now, is zope really what cold fusion wants to be? i have to plead ignorance when it comes to using cold fusion, i never tried it. from what this friend keeps telling me it looks like cold fusion allows you to do the fancy shmancy graphics stuff pretty well with WYSIWIG editors and such. i don't think that's the road zope is going itself, zope as i see it is more about enabling, programming, and basically being the workhorse back-end to those graphics.
of course this friend and i have discussed this quite often and we kid each other about what our favorite products can and can't do. in terms of the ability to use real programming, like zope, he says he doesn't want to get into it, or even shouldn't have to. for him it's the ability to present a winning design and do some point and click to connect to the database. time is money. i on the other hand love that programming stuff and can't stop having new and neat ideas about what to program.
i think cold fusion and zope have a much-different philosophy. it's really hard to compare the two.
-- Stephan Richter iXL - Software Designer and Engineer
Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
that's an interesting point. i have this ongoing discussion with one of my best friends who does webdesign and web-programming (nothing on a real programming language level like perl or python) for a living. he swears by cold fusion.
now, is zope really what cold fusion wants to be? i have to plead ignorance when it comes to using cold fusion, i never tried it. from what this friend keeps telling me it looks like cold fusion allows you to do the fancy shmancy graphics stuff pretty well with WYSIWIG editors and such. i don't think that's the road zope is going itself, zope as i see it is more about enabling, programming, and basically being the workhorse back-end to those graphics.
Hmm, The parallel is closer between CFML (ColdFusion Markup Language) and DTML. ColdFusion does not have an integrated ODB, nor does it have Zope's through-the-web management. CFML has a syntax that is more elegant than the 'old-style' DTML, but is roughly equivalent to the 'new-style' DTML. Allaire has ColdFusion Studio, which is a souped-up version of Allaire Homesite. Studio is probably the best HTML/Server-Side-Programming IDE that I am aware of that is available for Wintel boxen (I love the Codesweeper function). BTW I never use Studios wysiwyg features. It also integrates nicely with Macromedia Dreamweaver, which is the best wysiwyg editor, period. Note: A very close competitor to ColdFusion Studio was Elemental Software's Drumbeat (http://www.drumbeat.com), which unfortunately had gone down an ASP only path that spelled its doom. They were recently acquired by Macromedia, and given Macromedia's history of browser-agnosticism with Dreamweaver, this could lead to a very interesting product, from Zope's POV(a server-agnostic IDE, perhaps based on WebDAV?). Now, none of the preceding should be taken as a criticism of Zope, as two things that Zope has (the integrated ODB and through-the-web management), not to mention cross platform deployment, are category-killer features. Zope's standards-based approach of embracing multiple clients on multiple platforms is far superior to Allaire's proprietary approach of providing an optimized client on a single platfrom, no matter how good it is. Michael Bernstein.
participants (3)
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Jens Vagelpohl -
Michael Bernstein -
Stephan Richter