Re: [Zope] Re: plone "vs." CMF was ... uPortal??
--On 27 September 2002 21:24 -0400 Tim Lynch <lynch@gould.mannlib.cornell.edu> wrote:
Have folks looked at uPortal (www.ja-sig.org)?
Well, the University of Bristol has. We have just decided to run with it as our Portal Framework. We had a short-list of three (all "free" to us) - Zope +/- CMF, Oracle Portal and uPortal. You can read a little more about this decision at: <http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/portal> This also points to a summary of who (in the UK education scene) is using (or considering using) what portal framework: <http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/portal/portalbytes> Why did we not run with Zope +/- CMF? In short it boiled down to "Why would you write uPortal in Zope when it's already been written in Java?" Also, whilst our in-house Java skills are modest, they are not as scarce as our in-house Python skills. And, of course, risk-averse organisations are more comfortable with the J-word than the P-word. We have, however, adopted Zope as our content management framework (though as yet we are not using the CMF). The join between uPortal and Zope will be key. So I would be very pleased to share experiences with any other outfits exploring this route.
The model uPortal provides is one of Views arranged by Tabs; each View is composed of one or more Channels. A Channel can be thought of as a window to a particular web service (not uppercase Web Service, though certainly that is supported) such as, perhaps, an RSS feed. Tabs are typically arranged across the top of the browser window: 'Home', 'Campus', 'MyPortal' ... Clicking on a Tab brings into view a browser window of the channels that make up that View.
Users have the option to create their own "MyPortal" view, placing on that page the channels they choose and arranging them in the order they choose.
Individual channels can be opened/closed/deattached/minimized.
I think the uPortal model is appealing, though pieces, such as the screens for setting MyPortal's organization, are klunky.
I know what you're saying. But the Web sometimes forces klunkiness.
If you attended last February's Python conference, maybe you saw the canned NATO demo? That was a sort-of uPortal-in-Zope design (with a really slick javascript-based MyPortal organizer tool that definitely one-ups uPortal's). anyway
I wasn't there but I read about it: <http://www.zopezen.org/Members/zopista/1012948857> This was WISE, right? Web Information Services Environment. Real shame that it is trapped in a vortex called NATO ;-)
What I'd like to see in the CMF/Plone kit is some uPortal-like functionality. For example, once I, as regular joe-user, register with a site, I'd like to be able to arrange my home page as I see fit. Maybe put the Calendar "channel" on my home page at the top-left in place of the Merchandise "channel" ...
Quite. I don't know much/enough about the CMF but I'm sure this is all do-able. But if uPortal have already invented that wheel ....
'course there's no real content management capabilities in uPortal and in a dozen other ways uPortal comes up short compared to Zope/CMF/Plone ... but it does demonstrate some cool ideas.
Exactly. The most important lesson we have learned is that "portals are fundamentally content-free". Portals aggregate views of information and services that reside elsewhere. If you go with a portal framework like uPortal, you still need a CMS (though the uPortal roadmap now has CMS on it ....). Right now it seems the Java world can't compete with the CMS features of Zope - so that's why were backing both horses. But with things like Cocoon and Jahia maturing I'm not sure how long this situation will prevail. Zope +/- CMF does have a window of opportunity, IMHO, to get a foothold by stealth in the Java-based portal framework space. One (or more) XML skins need to be written that allow Zope apps to be rendered (via XSLT) into the portal framework (uPortal is not unique in using XSLT to render content into channels/portlets). I'd like to acknowledge the role Chris Withers has had in steering me towards this view. Paul -- The Library, Tyndall Avenue, Univ. of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1TJ, UK E-mail: paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk URL: http://www.bris.ac.uk/
Quite. I don't know much/enough about the CMF but I'm sure this is all do-able. But if uPortal have already invented that wheel ....
This is somewhere in the list of things to do (i've already done it as a prototype at aspn.activestate.com), I've never thought it that useful or used it myself on sites that do serve it. Do you think its that useful? -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca
On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Andy McKay wrote:
Quite. I don't know much/enough about the CMF but I'm sure this is all do-able. But if uPortal have already invented that wheel ....
This is somewhere in the list of things to do (i've already done it as a prototype at aspn.activestate.com), I've never thought it that useful or used it myself on sites that do serve it. Do you think its that useful?
I used it on aspn. I really liked your prototype, Andy. Looking at this question from a slightly different perspective, how hard would it be to build this functionality into CMF or Plone? I've just started seriously working with the CMF system and can only say I don't know enough to answer this question myself. If it turns out to be not that hard, then it seems to me like a definite win to offer this sort of functionality. - Tim Lynch tlynch@nal.usda.gov www.agnic.org
-- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca
On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Paul Browning wrote:
--On 27 September 2002 21:24 -0400 Tim Lynch <lynch@gould.mannlib.cornell.edu> wrote:
Have folks looked at uPortal (www.ja-sig.org)?
Well, the University of Bristol has. We have just decided to run with it as our Portal Framework. We had a short-list of three (all "free" to us) - Zope +/- CMF, Oracle Portal and uPortal.
You can read a little more about this decision at: <http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/portal>
This also points to a summary of who (in the UK education scene) is using (or considering using) what portal framework: <http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/portal/portalbytes>
Why did we not run with Zope +/- CMF? In short it boiled down to "Why would you write uPortal in Zope when it's already been written in Java?" Also, whilst our in-house Java skills are modest, they are not as scarce as our in-house Python skills. And, of course, risk-averse organisations are more comfortable with the J-word than the P-word.
We have, however, adopted Zope as our content management framework (though as yet we are not using the CMF). The join between uPortal and Zope will be key. So I would be very pleased to share experiences with any other outfits exploring this route.
The model uPortal provides is one of Views arranged by Tabs; each View is composed of one or more Channels. A Channel can be thought of as a window to a particular web service (not uppercase Web Service, though certainly that is supported) such as, perhaps, an RSS feed. Tabs are typically arranged across the top of the browser window: 'Home', 'Campus', 'MyPortal' ... Clicking on a Tab brings into view a browser window of the channels that make up that View.
Users have the option to create their own "MyPortal" view, placing on that page the channels they choose and arranging them in the order they choose.
Individual channels can be opened/closed/deattached/minimized.
I think the uPortal model is appealing, though pieces, such as the screens for setting MyPortal's organization, are klunky.
I know what you're saying. But the Web sometimes forces klunkiness.
If you attended last February's Python conference, maybe you saw the canned NATO demo? That was a sort-of uPortal-in-Zope design (with a really slick javascript-based MyPortal organizer tool that definitely one-ups uPortal's). anyway
I wasn't there but I read about it: <http://www.zopezen.org/Members/zopista/1012948857> This was WISE, right? Web Information Services Environment.
Real shame that it is trapped in a vortex called NATO ;-)
This might not be as bad as it seems. The development was done with federal US $$ and the bulk of the code should be available to all. We (the USDA National Agricultural Library) are working on getting a copy of it. In any case, the one piece that really lit up the eyes of those attending was the javascript tool to configure a user's personal page ( MyNATO?? :). We've just cloned that piece.
What I'd like to see in the CMF/Plone kit is some uPortal-like functionality. For example, once I, as regular joe-user, register with a site, I'd like to be able to arrange my home page as I see fit. Maybe put the Calendar "channel" on my home page at the top-left in place of the Merchandise "channel" ...
Quite. I don't know much/enough about the CMF but I'm sure this is all do-able. But if uPortal have already invented that wheel ....
We're looking to build a CMF/Portal system for AgNIC (www.agnic.org). Once built, we want to share it with any pariticipating institution in the AgNIC alliance. We will also offer some degree of support. Many institutions have limited resources. Thus, open source is a given. And it's got to be something a small IT shop can have some hope of working with; that alone I think rules out uPortal. It'll be challenging enough to support Zope/Plone; there's no way I'd want to take on supporting Zope/Plone _and_ uPortal.
'course there's no real content management capabilities in uPortal and in a dozen other ways uPortal comes up short compared to Zope/CMF/Plone ... but it does demonstrate some cool ideas.
Exactly. The most important lesson we have learned is that "portals are fundamentally content-free". Portals aggregate views of information and services that reside elsewhere.
If you go with a portal framework like uPortal, you still need a CMS (though the uPortal roadmap now has CMS on it ....). Right now it seems the Java world can't compete with the CMS features of Zope - so that's why were backing both horses. But with things like Cocoon and Jahia maturing I'm not sure how long this situation will prevail.
Zope +/- CMF does have a window of opportunity, IMHO, to get a foothold by stealth in the Java-based portal framework space.
Agreed. I think a long-term advantage Zope +/- CMF/Plone can offer over the Java-based stuff is that, overall, it's easier. Easier to set up, to comprehend, to customize, to maintain, etc. In the end uPortal might be more powerful, but then will that extra power be needed or that useful? Afterall, look how many sites are running just fine on ColdFusion...
One (or more) XML skins need to be written that allow Zope apps to be rendered (via XSLT) into the portal framework (uPortal is not unique in using XSLT to render content into channels/portlets).
I'd like to acknowledge the role Chris Withers has had in steering me towards this view.
Paul
-- The Library, Tyndall Avenue, Univ. of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1TJ, UK E-mail: paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk URL: http://www.bris.ac.uk/
participants (3)
-
Andy McKay -
Paul Browning -
Tim Lynch