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Good news, I think. They're not learning.

On the contrary, I believe that there is a great deal that we could learn from CF. I still remember the first time I downloaded CF and had built my own custom apps within an evening - not just prepackaged apps (like Zope's "products" or just using the web interface) but my own stuff. ie. they had me writing code immediately. I am, to paraphrase snowcrash 'as slow as a mammal can be and still have respiratory functions', so this was no mean feat.

Their packaging is superb. This *is* important though we (when wearing our 'techie' hats) would like to think it isn't. I don't refer to the pretty box that software arrives in, I refer to the completeness of the documentation, the website, the very simple tutorials that get people up and running in no time at all. They understand their target audience well ... and the docs are written such that even a total mong would understand. Yes, I speak from experience in the department ;)

I think that this is an important thread - while we do not necessarily want to compete with every other product in the marketplace on a feature-by-feature basis, it _is_ important to keep an eye on the competition and to learn from both their successes and failures. Zopistas with significant experience using other systems are invaluable in this process - you have enough of a foot in both worlds to give informed feedback as to what we can learn from the other guys out there. The main general points I see above: o short learning curve, quick tutorials and productivity o very good docs/organization/presentation ...are things that (believe me) we have been hearing loud and clear for a while now. We (and the Zopista community) have been focusing a lot of effort on HowTos, better documentation and improving zope.org as a learning resource to make progress on these concerns. That doesn't mean that the problem is solved, of course, but the community as a whole is certainly aware of it and taking action. That said, are there other particular lessons that you think we should learn from CF/Spectra? Brian Lloyd brian@digicool.com Software Engineer 540.371.6909 Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com