I've enjoyed the contributions on this thread. Some time back I mentioned that what hooked me on Zope was the Relational Database access "out of the box". I liked the way Zope generated a simple database query form and result - so I agree strongly that Zope could hook more people if it did even more useful things without coding. I even suggested others submitted their favourite ideas for a "Wizards of Zope" beauty contest. I've been supplying solutions to clients for xx years now and my philosophy has always been to code at the highest possible level. Don't code in machine code if you can code in assembler, don't code in assembler if you can code in C, don't code in C if you can code in a 4GL, don't code at all if you don't have to :-) Zope offers the potential to be the perfect development environment with tons of really good solutions off the shelf - these can be customised if they have to, we can drop down to Python if we really need to. Perfect. Unfortunately its been difficult to get discussions like this going on zope.org as its mainly devoted to coding problems, while zope-dev is to do with deep and complex zopezen. I know usability is high on Paul Everitts list, 'cos he said so in Paris. Perhaps we need zope-usability.org as a forum for non-technical discussions about Zope development ?