RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
This is pretty silly.
Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you).
Chris McDonough wrote:
This is pretty silly.
Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you).
I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the whole community shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a perfect solution... pessimistic, I know, but pessimism if often appropriate in computing... Chris
+----[ Chris Withers ]--------------------------------------------- | | This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. | | Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the whole community | shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a | perfect solution... So retaliate by making PHP into a python project. d8) If the phantom 'perl userbase' could 'hack into the core' and put perl in there, why would they wait for perl methods to become available first? They would have implemented PerlZope long before this. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
If the phantom 'perl userbase' could 'hack into the core' and put perl in there, why would they wait for perl methods to become available first?
They would have implemented PerlZope long before this.
http://www.bgw.org/projects/pas2/ -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited
Chris Withers wrote:
I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...)
This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there.
Yeah, but for that you'd need to be able to import Python code into Perl, or alternatively reimplement all those core classes (ObjectManager, etc.). And integrate Perl code with ZODB (pickle instances of perl classes.) Why would anyone spend time doing that? -- Itamar S.T. itamar@maxnm.com
<--lots 'o' stuff snipped--> Here's my opinion.. Zope is a structure or enivronment.. The reason thet DC gives you the ability to create products is because they don't want to do it all themselves.. If they want to open it to Perl/Java/ etc, more power to them, more products for us to use.. The Zope environment is written in python.. I wouldn't care if it was all in C (or assemlber for that matter).. If it gives me the interhitence, and the other neat features, with ot without python, fine by me.. Don't get me wrong, I like python and hate perl... But if someone perl hacker gives me a product that I can use, so much the better.. --John
Itamar Shtull-Trauring wrote:
Chris Withers wrote:
I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...)
This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there.
This is my primary concern as well. History bears this concern out. Keep the programming languages to Python (and some C where needed, of course). Even if it isn't done by DC, a large perl user base *will* come up with perl products. At which point DC will either be pressured into accepting them into thecore, or watching the branch become the dominant Zope.
Yeah, but for that you'd need to be able to import Python code into Perl, or alternatively reimplement all those core classes (ObjectManager, etc.). And integrate Perl code with ZODB (pickle instances of perl classes.) Why would anyone spend time doing that?
Two questions: o Seen Minotaur? o Beacuse that's what perlers do: they rewrite everything as often as they can
+----[ Chris McDonough ]--------------------------------------------- | This is pretty silly. I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I don't think I've ever seen paranoia and religious fervour mixed in quite the same way before. Anyone would think that people think that python is inadequate as a language. If you don't want people working for you to write perl, tell them they can't write it in perl. I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best.
You never seen blokes arguing over which girl band is best ;-) I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now and we just have to live with it :S Chris
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris Withers wrote:
I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now
That's why I stopped to argue. Let's wait and see. There are already so many Bad Things in computer industry this one wouldn't make things much worse.
and we just have to live with it :S
...have to die with it... :( Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best.
You never seen blokes arguing over which girl band is best ;-)
It's a coin flip between Kittie and L7 IMHO, anyone who disagrees can meet me outside to discuss it ;-)
I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now and we just have to live with it :S
Yep, seriously I think it's only a problem if people make it a problem. At the moment the "evil" threat of Perl is on the horizon, it's not here so there's plenty of time to prepare. You don't have to go the Perl route, but if you're worried that <insert your non-Python language of choice here> is going to be a negative influence, which to me suggests doubt about Zope and Python IMHO, then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy. It's not worth arguing about, we're all united by Zope aren't we? John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.
On Thu, 25 May 2000, John Chandler wrote:
then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy.
Ha, "educate people"! Educate people not to use Windows? Educate them at least not to be beaten by ILOVEYOE virus? Anyone succeede in this educating?
It's not worth arguing about, we're all united by Zope aren't we?
Zope AND Python! Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy.
Ha, "educate people"! Educate people not to use Windows? Educate them at least not to be beaten by ILOVEYOE virus? Anyone succeede in this educating?
A lot of people use Windows because they either aren't aware of alternatives or don't understand the alternatives. I've shown people alternatives to Windows, and some times it's worked, other times it hasn't. Education done well can work wonders, but I wouldn't say it works all the time - some people are never going to listen. :-( The important thing, IMHO, is to make the effort to get people to understand the philosophy behind Zope. Some people are going to ignore it irrespective, but many could well take notice and be "saved" from doing the wrong thing. If you don't try, those people will slip through the net and end up charging into Zope the wrong way. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
+----[ Chris McDonough ]--------------------------------------------- | This is pretty silly.
I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago.
I don't think I've ever seen paranoia and religious fervour mixed in quite the same way before. Anyone would think that people think that python is inadequate as a language.
Right; it's more likely the Perlers that do come in (if they will at all!) will learn Python. Legitimate worry 1: If the Perlers *do* come in and *don't* switch to Python soon, we'll run into Zope sites half written in Perl. That may be unpleasant for people to deal with. This is possibly not a big deal; it's unlikely the Perl group will become dominant anyway. This does beg the question why Perl support is put in at all; if the DC people believe this *too*, they're adding a feature that's not even intended to be used as a feature, but is more like a marketing device for Zope. Legitimate worry 2: In order to support Perl, the Zope Python sources will be hacked up and certain new limitations/weirdnesses are introduced. This could be mitigated by *generalizing* the interface with other languages. Not just put in Perl specific patches. Clean interfaces and componentization are the key here. Regards, Martijn
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:39:56AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
+----[ Chris McDonough ]--------------------------------------------- | This is pretty silly.
I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago.
I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Shame. I'm mostly a perl programmer, but Zope was convincing me I needed to spend some time on python. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. -- Rodger Donaldson rodgerd@diaspora.gen.nz "That... feels... wonderful... Bones..." "It's head, Jim."
Rodger Donaldson wrote:
I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be.
Heh - some people are stopping to use Zope 'cause of Perl Methods, and now people are stopping to use Zope because of all the other people who hate the idea of Zope supporing Perl. Now it's time for the third round of people, who are going to drop Zope because obviously everyone is stopping to use Zope, so what's the point of using it? Niven's 16th Law: "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." While we're at it, the 14th: "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently. (The gene-tampered turkey you're talking to isn't necessarily one of them.)" -- Itamar S.T. itamar@maxnm.com "It don't get thingier than that!"
Frankly, I don't know what all the fuss is about. While I would personally choose Python over Perl when scripting, having additional choices is never a bad thing. Here are 3 reasons why Perl methods should be added: Increased userbase for ZOPE. Reusability of working Perl code. The ability to use Perl should I decide it can do the job better. If you feel that you need to stop using ZOPE because they added functionality, then see ya later. In addition, if you decide not to start using a great product like ZOPE because you feel you are being picked on, well then sorry, but you will be missing out. Fighting over this is silly and it wastes the time of those who would like to find meaningful answers to posed questions. JMHO, Jeff Peterson Software Engineer The Bridge/Befera Interactive Cablenet -----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Rodger Donaldson Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:46 AM To: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:39:56AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
+----[ Chris McDonough ]--------------------------------------------- | This is pretty silly.
I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago.
I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Shame. I'm mostly a perl programmer, but Zope was convincing me I needed to spend some time on python. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. -- Rodger Donaldson rodgerd@diaspora.gen.nz "That... feels... wonderful... Bones..." "It's head, Jim." _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Seconded, Surely for most purposes the language used to implement is irrelevant. Code in whatever you want, stick PHP/Smalltalk/whatever language into Zope if it means more people can use it, and save me having to write my own stuff ;) The important thing is the framework! Phil phil.harris@zope.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Peterson" <jpeterso@the-bridge.net> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: 31 May 2000 21:30 Subject: RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Frankly, I don't know what all the fuss is about. While I would personally choose Python over Perl when scripting, having additional choices is never a bad thing.
Here are 3 reasons why Perl methods should be added:
Increased userbase for ZOPE. Reusability of working Perl code. The ability to use Perl should I decide it can do the job better.
If you feel that you need to stop using ZOPE because they added functionality, then see ya later. In addition, if you decide not to start using a great product like ZOPE because you feel you are being picked on, well then sorry, but you will be missing out.
Fighting over this is silly and it wastes the time of those who would like to find meaningful answers to posed questions.
JMHO,
Jeff Peterson Software Engineer The Bridge/Befera Interactive Cablenet
On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 10:45:31PM +1200, Rodger Donaldson wrote:
the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight
That's an overstatement.
But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life.
Oooo, now you're calling everyone an idiot. May I ask if you do this stuff for a living, or for fun? I do this for fun, and I intend to try Enhydra (Java), Mason (Perl), ACS (Tcl) and assorted other stuff. I don't let other people who use those stuff put me off. If I am doing this for a living, the type of people on the users' mailing list is just one (minor) factor in selecting the technology. <gratuitious insult> Your response is typical of one from the Perl community. No wonder people on this list are up in arms over the idea of integrating Perl and Zope. They worry more people like you will turn up! </gratuitious insult> My $0.02. Cheers. -- Ng Pheng Siong <ngps@post1.com> * http://www.post1.com/home/ngps
participants (14)
-
Andrew Kenneth Milton -
Bill Anderson -
Chris McDonough -
Chris Withers -
Itamar Shtull-Trauring -
Jeff Peterson -
John Chandler -
John Sutherland -
Martijn Faassen -
Ng Pheng Siong -
Oleg Broytmann -
Phil Harris -
Rodger Donaldson -
Steve Alexander