hi, Just wanted to report: I've just spent 90 minutes setting up PageTemplates on a virtual server we have here. The zope installation I'm using as the basis of it was running under a different group than that of the target server. I couldn't figure out why PageTemplates wasn't showing up in the Products folder. However, turning on the -D option in the 'start' script showed that the PageTemplates product was having a problem loading up a 'gif (of all things). Once I set the permissions correct the product loaded up fine. Thing is, I wouldn't have found the problem if I hadn't turned on the -D option. hope this helps tone.