Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
"KM" == Ken Manheimer <klm@digicool.com> writes:
KM> I have some misgivings with this outlook. It sounds like KM> people who seek job security by having expertise with a system KM> that closes out unfamiliar options - whether the options are KM> better or worse. I'm not in any way unfamiliar with perl. If this had been a language that I didn't know or, or any technology that I didn't know - I would have an opened mind. I've been down the perl road, and have made a personal choice never to do it again. KM> For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving KM> perl with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the KM> first place - why don't you trust your judgement? Python KM> *does* offer better a better foundation for persistence, KM> acquisition, general object-oriented applications, etc - you KM> should not be frightened of a level, open zope playing field KM> that admits both python and perl! Yes, *I* should. I'm trying to make the point that it's nieve to believe that I will be able to just ignore the perl bits. Yes, I can avoid writing anything original in perl but sooner or later, if I'm working with zope, I will be asked to do something with one of the perl methods. They are going to be prevalent and hard to avoid. So, if my goal is to entirely avoid maintaining perl code, I will have to avoid Zope. KM> I never really learned C - but that doesn't mean i won't use KM> other people's C extensions! Many many people have found KM> Python to be the best way to get acquainted with Java, with KM> jpython - and i wonder how many java folks got turned on to KM> python's advantages, though the ability to use java KM> interactively via jpython. Access to other languages via KM> python isn't a problem, it's a solution - why should it be any KM> different with Zope? I wouldn't mind using someone else's perl module either. But it just isn't going to be limited to that. Developers get hit by buses, and managers assign the code to other people. I think that anyone who wants to claim Zope expertise will need to know and be willing to code in perl. ^Roman
Actually, I'd like to see Zope interface with "more" languages (Java, C++ etc.) There are a number of areas that Python performs poorly (I'd prefer to write encryption algorithms in C, personally) and there are areas where Python performs very well (OO modelling). I think if people are upset that they may have to extend their knowledge base to be Zope "experts" than this is a little silly. Do I have to be an Oracle/MySQL/SyBase/etc. to know Zope. No - I benefit from Zope being able to handle all of these database sources. If someone has written a Zope product that "works" I really don't care what language it's in (ok, I "do," but not entirely :). If it's broken then I'll fix/extend/rewrite it. The fact that we can leverage Perl resources now and port them over time (if it even makes sense to do so) is beneficial. If it ain't broke... Of course, there are many Perl apps out there that would benefit greatly from the Zope environment and people will eventually port them over if Python will make them better. And, if not, there are books on Perl that would enable a relatively competent Python programmer to hack their way through it. Just my $0.02 worth. Mike
Actually, I'd like to see Zope interface with "more" languages (Java, C++ etc.) There are a number of areas that Python performs poorly (I'd prefer to write encryption algorithms in C, personally) and there are areas where Python performs very well (OO modelling). I think if people are upset that
It comes down to a combination of using the right tool for the right job with a little bit of personal preference thrown in. Zope, through Python, already supports C. I personally don't like C very much, but I use it and it has certain advantages over other compiled languages - in an ideal world I'd do compiled coding in something like Modula-2, but it just isn't practical from a portability and support front.
they may have to extend their knowledge base to be Zope "experts" than this is a little silly. Do I have to be an Oracle/MySQL/SyBase/etc. to know Zope. No - I benefit from Zope being able to handle all of these database sources. If someone has written a Zope product that "works" I really don't care what language it's in (ok, I "do," but not entirely :). If it's broken
Exactly :-) For me personally, the implementation language of Zope is completely immaterial - it could be written in Cobol, Prolog or Forth but if it does exactly what it does at the moment I would still use it and enjoy it because it has so much power. When Simon and Chris in the office introduced me to Zope, the internals didn't matter - there was so much potential lurking on the outside, I just couldn't be anything but impressed. Zope is seriously cool stuff. I'd never touched a line of Python at the time, though I quickly learnt it from a curiosity point of view (remember, I was/still am a Perl coder). It wasn't useful at the time, but it has been since.
eventually port them over if Python will make them better. And, if not, there are books on Perl that would enable a relatively competent Python programmer to hack their way through it.
The thing is, if you are a reasonable to good programmer in one language, there's no reason why you can't pick up another language easily - in fact, it's very good practice to learn new languages even if you end up putting them to one side after a few weeks/months and go back to your language of choice. In some ways, going from a rigid (and I mean that in a nice way, just couldn't think of a better word) language such as Python that enforces good programming habits will make it easier for you to be a good programmer in a less-rigid language such as Perl. Pascal or Modula-2 to C or C++ is a much easier transition than the other way around because you've learnt the good programming habits from the start and have trained your mind not to abuse the darker side of C. When people ask me what's a good language to learn programming with, something like Python or Pascal is usually my first answer, C isn't even though it may be in more widespread use than Pascal. *phew* And some people think computing is dull ;-) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either.
participants (3)
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John Chandler -
Michael Oas -
Roman Milner