On Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:25:11PM +0000, complaw@hal-pc.org wrote:

I agree with Tim. First, splitting the list would mean that we would have to monitor more groups. Second, I have learned a lot from the more sophisticated

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"Dario Lopez-Kästen" wrote:

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I propose that we split^H^H^Hfork the zope@zope.org into the following

IMHO, it would be better to keep only zope@zope.org and set mandatory topics between square brackets. If the poster doesn't set one of the mandatory topic, then his post is rejected with an information message listing all possible topics and explaining what each of them is for. a possible preliminary list of mandatory topics should be: [INSTALL] => installation/launching problem [DATABASE] => external and gadfly databases [SECUROY] => User management and permissions [DTML] => ... etc... This would allow people to filter automatically to keep only what they want, while at the same time not bothering people who want to receive all messages. Any comment ? bye, Jerome Alet

----- Original Message ----- From: <complaw@hal-pc.org>

I agree with Tim. First, splitting the list would mean that we would have to monitor more groups. Second, I have learned a lot from the more sophisticated uses simply by keeping up with this list-group and I doubt the newbie list would be nearly as rich as the current list. Third (although I don't do it enough) I can help the newbies with those basic questions that I used to ask and in some small way contribute to the group. It is that last (important if not crucial) input that makes this list so attractive to the new users and thus enables them to get up the rather steep learning curve that Zope offers.

This raises some good points. Zope clearly does not a have a simple linear learning curve - you might say it is an objected-oriented one with acquisition effects thrown in frmo tmie to surprising time. One may have a decent grasp of one area, but that may be unexpectedly upset or enhanced by a dicovery of somehtnig new in another topic. The size adn ness of this list is its own worst enemy and also its gretest virtue IMO. So what to do? Splitting I fear will be less niose, but also less signal. True one could simply join all lists, but then there is the lack of cross fretitilization of ideas and know-how which seems so eessential to Zope growth and learning. Many list divisions, though well intentioned really seems to be asking for trouble. 3 [4 max] as suggested by Andy is more suitable: , zope, zope-newbies, zope-dev and zope-install is a better idea. I think it will improve things somewhat but spread the *blurring* effect more horizontally. #1 First and foremost, I want much better subject headers, with a consistent set of useful keyword stype prefaces, so that I can set my Mail software to group them nicely but still benefit from the richness of the list. For example: Subject:[zope-newbies] What does the Z in Zope stand for? Subject:[zope-database] PoPy upgrade problems on BSD 7.9.x Subject:[zope-ideas] ZGETMAIL product suggestion Subject:[zope-products] ZGIS new version reads mapinfo data Subject:[zope-DTML] How to sort nested DTML statemtents using properties values? Subject:[zope-ScriptsPython] returning formatted form inputs Subjkect[zope-design] considering new etransport site in Zope - looking for advice Subject:[zope-OT] Can Zony Playstation run ZEO? Subject:[zope-business] Zope site development and maintenteance pricing Subject:[zope] etc etc This means much smarter cataloging and indexing of all future zope lists without really segregating the community. Individuals have better freedom to select ignore, while benefitting from more informative fast track scan reading of subject headers. #2 But what I _really_ want are new ways to receive all the zope list mail in smarter 'tree'-lile form where some topics are raw and verbose while others are grouped and linked for a different kind of scanning and reaction. Thus fewer top level contents in my mail box, easier search, faster review of what is happening the zope world, and still retain detailed access to the entire scope of the community's effort when I need it and vice versa. What I am sugesting is take the best ideas from newsgroups and tree intefaces adn addapt to the fast, direct minimal world of email lists. Can anyone think of a good way to have both of these worlds: minimal list splitting + rich subject headers? Here's a strategy: Create the proposed rich multi-split list categories, but merge them back in to one list before they get publicly circulated. So you would mail to zope-ideas@zope.org or zope-business@zope.org but the messages would be first merged with the correcttopic preface and then sent to the zopelist. But this alone is not enouch of an improvement: The mailing list subscription interface should be modified so that people can adjust the options for how the various sub-divisions are merged and presented. For example: Zopista'A' might set it up like this: 1. [zope-newbies] to return only a single daily archive message containing subject header, urls to fetch them and some other handy statistics 2. [zope-database] as a single message containing a verbose archive of the day's threads 3. same for [zope-business][zope-OT] 4. all others in nromal single non-digest verbose mode ...meanwhile zopista 'B' selects these options: 1. [zope-dev],[zope-database] in regular verbose dierct mode 2. all others in a set of single daily emails with short-form digest + urls Hopefully Zope itself can be used to set this up and for managing the subscription forms templates. SUMMARY ADVANTAGES - Plan for growth. When newer split-topics are demanded, the system can accomodate them easily without painful debates or disruptnig presonal and public habits, and without breaking anything like catalogs or mail filter settings. - Showcase. Makes a great demo of Zope itself - TrafficFlow Reduces list traffic for FAQs, becuase it would be much easier to ask, find adn respond - Detail-On-demand. Does not segregate the community at source in. Instad each individual can optmiize their mailflow to need and interest Jason ___________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS['Interactive Art and Technology']