Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
"KD" == Kevin Dangoor <kid@kendermedia.com> writes:
KD> I think Zope offers a ton of features that I wouldn't want to KD> give up. (And I've been watching what the other servers out KD> there are doing, and I still appreciate the power given by KD> Zope.) I don't question at all that zope is awesome. KD> I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not KD> going to use Linux, because people might write tools in perl KD> [or awk, or C, or lisp, or sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" KD> Perhaps that's a better way to look at Zope... not as a python KD> web application, but as a high-level OS extension for dynamic KD> web applications. Well, I don't think that analogy applies directly. People will ask, "do you know zope", and in order to say yes - I will need to know perl. The answer "yes except for the perl bits" won't fly with an employer. Linux is different. Saying "I know linux" generally means you know how to administer it - not how to code in every language available to it. When looking for a coding job - they hire based on what language you know - not what OS. For zope, you will just have to "know zope" - employers will see "zope" and a language just like parents see "understanding computers" as knowing how to fix their windows boxes :) We have a lot of former perl coders here and they won't be able to resist the new fancy perl methods. And within a short while we will have a body code dung. Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source project model. They will make bad decisions based on potential profit. XEmacs has managed to fend of perl (and python) support. I have heard close to the same argument there that I have made here, basically. Another language adds little benefit and much complexity for someone who will have to maintain code on the platform. I don't buy this bit about being able to access 1000's of wonderful perl modules. Most people that I know who have made the switched at how much better the python library is the perl's. ^Roman Sorry for being a tad emotional here. I'm sure I will calm down - it's just that yesterday I was one of the most adamant Zope evangelist around. Today...
+----[ Roman Milner ]--------------------------------------------- | | Well, I don't think that analogy applies directly. People will ask, | "do you know zope", and in order to say yes - I will need to know | perl. The answer "yes except for the perl bits" won't fly with an | employer. | | Linux is different. Saying "I know linux" generally means | you know how to administer it - not how to code in every language | available to it. Do you know UNIX? "Only the Linux bits" is that your answer? I wouldn't hire you based on that. Zope is to UNIX, not to Linux. Nearly everything you want to deal with in the IT industry is fragmented. Do you know C? (ANSI and K&R ?) If someone wants you to maintain Perl code they will specifically ask about Perl, the way they will specifically ask about Solaris or HPUX not just UNIX (although they might if they think you actually have the capacity to apply your skills to another variant). The sad fact of the matter is that there is more concern for people's personal welfare, than that of the project as a whole. When in fact, what is good for Zope is good for the community. Zope is open source, if you don't like Perl, and it morally offends you, branch the code and keep your own Python-only version running. If you don't think this is feasible, ask yourself why, and then rethink why other language support in Zope is a GoodThing(tm) (TCL ? mmm acs integration) -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: [...]
The sad fact of the matter is that there is more concern for people's personal welfare, than that of the project as a whole. When in fact, what is good for Zope is good for the community.
Zope is open source, if you don't like Perl, and it morally offends you, branch the code and keep your own Python-only version running. If you don't think this is feasible, ask yourself why, and then rethink why other language support in Zope is a GoodThing(tm) (TCL ? mmm acs integration)
OK, let's look at the issue of fragmentation...(this is one of my larger concerns). Right now DC is adamant about the being no perl products. But, as you say, it is Open, so one can branch and fragment. Now, let's do some math. How much larger is the perl community; let's be honest, they are at least an order of magnitude larger). So, let us _assume_ that as some are predicting, we get this huge influx of perlers, and their concomitant perl-method based apps. We are then confronted with the situation where we have the majority of users demanding perl products, so they can stay in the land of perl and zope. Will DC remain as strong? Likely, IMO. But, as you say, the code is open. So, they branch the code, and start maintaining their own. Guess what happens to the userbase and developerbase from perl? That would be it wavig goodbye, or perhaps thats not awave.... As I have said, I have a fair amount of confidence in DC's refusal to include perl products. But, I also am fully aware that either they will cave in, or their perlers we reportedly would gain would fork, and add it on their own, thus abandoning the rest of us, and gainig us very little, if anything in the meantime. Unless python supplants perl as the dominant language in the world of scripting for the web, the forked verison will always win in a marketing contest, as long as it has what the 'Real Zope' has, nad has the perl stuff ours doesn't. In the world of marketing, more is better. In order to avoid this, it will take significant effort on the part of DC, and us users and developers. Basically, python will have to be considered a 'first class' citizen (to borrow a phrase ;-), and perl will have to remain a second-class citizen at best, and this will have to be tactfully, yet unquestionably made known. Can or Will this be done? I guess we will see, won't we? These are not the fearfull meanderings of a Python Nerd, but observations of history, and trends.
Roman Milner wrote:
For zope, you will just have to "know zope" - employers will see "zope" and a language just like parents see "understanding computers" as knowing how to fix their windows boxes :)
I feel like I "know zope", but I don't have a deep understanding of python, or a comprehensive grasp of how it handles SQL. Indeed, I'm not particularly fond of relational databases- but I think that's a phobia, and I'll get over it soon enough.
We have a lot of former perl coders here and they won't be able to resist the new fancy perl methods. And within a short while we will have a body code dung.
A body code dung? I can't possibly see how Perl Methods are going to lead to some imagined core source corruption. If a method is availiable in perl, so what? I mean, all of these "Methods" are going to have to talk the same way to the zope machinery. If you want to leave a Perl Method as a black box, then nothing should stop you. The very nature of Methods means that no-one is going to write PerlOffice in a single method. If someone has a substantial investment in Perl, and they want to keep that as an External Method in order transition to Zope, then they should be able to. It has been a barrier to the adoption of Zope more than once, I would imagine. One of the big stumbling blocks for me, in my adoption of zope, is that it "forced" me to do it with python or not at all.
Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source project model. They will make bad decisions based on potential profit.
This is a complete slam, and totally unjustified. ZOPE means "The Z Object Publishing System". publishing Perl methods as objects is just as valid as publishing any other kind of object. It is an open source project, with all the benifits thereof. If you really feel that it needs to be "OPOPS", the Only Python Object Publishing System, and that any non-python object is anathema, go right ahead.
I don't buy this bit about being able to access 1000's of wonderful perl modules. Most people that I know who have made the switched at how much better the python library is the perl's.
So fine. Be confident in your language, and assume that people will transition to python as they move in to using zope.
Sorry for being a tad emotional here. I'm sure I will calm down - it's just that yesterday I was one of the most adamant Zope evangelist around. Today...
Today you're taking one of the logical consequences in the development of an object publishing system and turning it into something that it's really not. The reality of web publishing is that people use a variety of tools and languages to accomplish their goals, and any object publishing system that wants to be worthy of the name needs to play nicely with as many as possible. opinions-are-mine-ly yours, ethan mindlace fremen Zopista Community Liason
participants (4)
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Andrew Kenneth Milton -
Bill Anderson -
mindlace -
Roman Milner