Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Here is why I'm bummed about this. Like other people who have posted - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it again. (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.) Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope. So, were I to want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected to be in my skill set. Other companies using zope will almost certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained. So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to relearn, and code in perl at that job. So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other web technologies for me, and my company. ^Roman
"PE" == Paul Everitt <Paul@digicool.com> writes:
PE> Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start PE> distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you PE> folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods. PE> This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up PE> to the O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code PE> is closer to being available. PE> ----------- PE> Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope PE> application server, announced today that it is teaming with PE> ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming PE> software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope. PE> Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet PE> applications and is a key success story for the Open Source PE> software movement. Zope is written in Python, the fastest PE> growing Open Source scripting language. PE> "It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future PE> architecture of the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital PE> Creations. "This dynamic architecture, and the people working PE> with it, are a fantastic match for scripting languages. Thus PE> it is natural that Digital Creations would team with PE> ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope." PE> "Zope is a powerful content management system that we use PE> internally," said Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding PE> the power of Perl to Zope, we will be able to leverage all the PE> existing Perl technology that we have as well as bring the PE> worlds of Python and Perl closer together." PE> Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to PE> run in the same application. More specifically, Perl PE> programmers can code critical pieces of business logic in Zope PE> solutions. PE> "The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most PE> important open source programming languages together," stated PE> Gisle Aas, Senior Developer, ActiveState. "Python programmers PE> will be able to directly take advantage of the large PE> collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found PE> on CPAN. Perl programmers will be able to program and PE> customize the Zope web application server using their favorite PE> language." PE> The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide PE> with the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July PE> 2000. For more information on the project, please visit the PE> Perl For Zope project page at PE> http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/. PE> Contact Information PE> For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt, PE> paul@digicool.com, 540.371.6909x102. For ActiveState, contact PE> Lori Pike, lorip@activestate.com, 604.713.8433. PE> --Paul PE> Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 PE> ----------------------------------------- The Open Source Zope PE> application server http://www.zope.org/ PE> ----------------------------------------- PE> _______________________________________________ Zope-Announce PE> maillist - Zope-Announce@zope.org PE> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce No cross PE> posts or HTML encoding! (Related lists - Users: PE> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope Developer: PE> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Milner" <rmilner@point-one.net> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:48 PM Subject: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Here is why I'm bummed about this. Like other people who have posted - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it again. (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.) Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope. So, were I to want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected to be in my skill set. Other companies using zope will almost certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained. So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to relearn, and code in perl at that job.
So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other web technologies for me, and my company.
I think Zope offers a ton of features that I wouldn't want to give up. (And I've been watching what the other servers out there are doing, and I still appreciate the power given by Zope.) It's a fact of web programming that there are lots of tools written in different languages. CORBA, XML-RPC and SOAP all provide glue between languages today. It's certainly possible you could come across someone who has applications written in several different languages that use one or more of these technologies to talk to each other... Adding PerlMethods just adds another interface... one that can potentially expand the Zope user base quite dramatically. Not to mention the possibility of tying in to some of the vast amounts Perl code that already exists out there. I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not going to use Linux, because people might write tools in perl [or awk, or C, or lisp, or sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" Perhaps that's a better way to look at Zope... not as a python web application, but as a high-level OS extension for dynamic web applications. Kevin
Kevin Dangoor wrote:
I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not going to use Linux, because people might write tools in perl [or awk, or C, or lisp, or sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" Perhaps that's a better way to look at Zope... not as a python web application, but as a high-level OS extension for dynamic web applications.
The metaphore seems quite right! Some of its most significant features (Aquiition, ExtensionClass) are even written in C and mess with guts of python interpreter. See for example PostgreSQL - it has C, SQL, PL/SQL, TCL, Perl, Ruby and soon python as its server-side programming languages, with no real argument about weather to include yet another language - if you dont want/need/know how to use it you just ignore it ;) And it was originally written in lisp ;-9 --------- Hannu
On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote:
Here is why I'm bummed about this. Like other people who have posted - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it again. (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.) Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope. So, were I to want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected to be in my skill set. Other companies using zope will almost certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained. So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to relearn, and code in perl at that job.
Exactly!
So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other web technologies for me, and my company.
I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good techonology, but what will come? Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
+----[ Oleg Broytmann ]--------------------------------------------- | | > So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other | > web technologies for me, and my company. | | I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good | techonology, but what will come? Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there you'd be humping its leg already. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
On Sat, 27 May 2000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
| > So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other | > web technologies for me, and my company. | | I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good | techonology, but what will come?
Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there you'd be humping its leg already.
Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until yesterday. On production servers I use pure Python CGIs powered by ZTemplates. I think I can add ZPublisher and PersistentCGI without diving into full Zope. Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll return to considering to use Zope on production servers. (Most of my sites are not interactive - just a "picture"; but there is one that during its development through last year became finally highly interactive; the site looks like first candidate for Zope and PTK and other Products). Oleg. (All opinions are mine and not of my employer) ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:55:52PM +0000, Oleg Broytmann wrote:
Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until yesterday. On production servers I use pure Python CGIs powered by ZTemplates. I think I can add ZPublisher and PersistentCGI without diving into full Zope.
Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll return to considering to use Zope on production servers. (Most of my sites are not interactive - just a "picture"; but there is one that during its development through last year became finally highly interactive; the site looks like first candidate for Zope and PTK and other Products).
Sorry, if you are giving up this quick I won't stop you, nor miss you. Zope is a growing platform, and people (not just DC) will add support for more and more technologies. There is support now for SQL (in many diffrent dialects), Python, DTML, XML, XML-RPC, LDAP IMAP, SMTP and goodness knows what. Do you know them all? Darn, I don't even know if above list is complete! Soon XSLT, SOAP and Perl will join the list. Many more will follow. If an employer is going to demand from you that you know all of the above or you're out of a job, well, there are plenty of good jobs out there. And good Zope skills will come in handy to find a nice job. Knowing a little Perl won't hurt either, BTW. It's all a question of perspective and profesionalism. Now, please, can we stop this whole silly argument? Can't we talk about old terminal types or something, instead? -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineer mailto:mj@digicool.com | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server ---------------------------------------------
Martijn Pieters wrote: [snip]
Now, please, can we stop this whole silly argument? Can't we talk about old terminal types or something, instead?
That invocation only works on comp.lang.python. :) Regards, Martijn
Oleg Broytmann wrote:
Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there you'd be humping its leg already.
Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until yesterday.
This is an overreaction. :) Zope still only uses Python in the core (with some C thrown in to support the Python). This won't change. I don't even think it *can* be changed; Perl product support would probably be such a pain in the neck that even Jim Fulton would say it's 'difficult' (and not just 'tricky', which is Fultonese for 'very difficult' already). [snip]
Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll return to considering to use Zope on production servers.
I don't think Perl will hurt Zope a lot. My main worry is that some part of the Zope python sources will have to be less clean in order to get Perl support. Along with weird side effects that may occur. But, since that source is open source, if it becomes too messy, someone will eventually stand up and clean it up. The more I look at DTML the more I want to clean *that* up, or better yet, reimplement it, and at one point, given time... Regards, Martijn
participants (7)
-
Andrew Kenneth Milton -
Hannu Krosing -
Kevin Dangoor -
Martijn Faassen -
Martijn Pieters -
Oleg Broytmann -
Roman Milner