I know this is a common complaint, but I just found a particularly nasty example: On the download page (http://www.zope.org/Products) I am encouraged to download and install the latest Hotfix, currently dated 3/8/2001. Looking at the link to more Zope fixes and the readme for this latest Zope hotfix I am told that this is important and should install right away. Fine. Nowhere am I given a link to instructions on HOW to install this hotfix. I don't care how easy it is to install a hotfix, please give me some documentation on what to do with this .tgz file I'm getting. I'm trying to learn Zope and the Zope way. However, for a product with a version of 2.3 to have such poorly organized documentation is just amazing. I know Zope has some really great documentation out there... And that's the problem, the documentation is just "out there" and to find it I have to luck out and find a link right to it, or read through dozens of pages that mention, but don't address the question I have. Zope is billed as a great content managment system/framework, but Zope.org site seems more a poster child for a content _publishing_ system. Management of that content is sorely lacking. I had to pass over Zope for other products twice in the last month, largely due to poor documentation: I knew Zope could do it, I just can't find any decent material on how. The Zope tutorial and Zope Book just say that development is possible but don't go into the details of developing Zope applications. (We won't go near Products...) I know I have the source, great, will you pay my salary for the next 2 months while I get a grip on that? I don't have time otherwise. I'm able to spend a little time learning, but the cost/benefit equation is making me think that Zope just isn't ready for prime time, which is a shame since I looks like Zope could provide a quantum leap foreward in making the web the platform of choice. I know this sounds just like a whiny complaint, but this is a complaint born out of a frustration at seeing what I think is a really great platform being relegated to a niche because the documentation isn't well organized. Chris
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Chris Cioffi Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:15 PM To: zope@zope.org Subject: [Zope] A typical Zope problem
I know this sounds just like a whiny complaint, but this is a complaint born out of a frustration at seeing what I think is a really great platform being relegated to a niche because the documentation isn't well organized.
This is a common complaint that has been heard in the Zope community for a long time now. Zope is fairly young, in my opinion, and emerged from a group of separate products not initially designed to hand out to everyone. Because of this and the rapid growth of Zope, documentation has suffered. Leaps and bounds have been made on docs in the last year and it continues to get better (including several book deals on the table). So don't fret too much, it's a high priority and soon the documentation complaint will be a thing of the past (I hope). Until then, you really do have to take some extra time to read the current version of "the book", how-tos, the mailing list, and anything else you can get your hands on. It's worth the time if you have it. Also, it definitely pays to know Python, even though claims are that you don't need to know it. _______________________ Ron Bickers Logic Etc, Inc. rbickers@logicetc.com
Chris Cioffi wrote:
I know this is a common complaint, but I just found a particularly nasty example:
applications. (We won't go near Products...) I know I have the source, great, will you pay my salary for the next 2 months while I get a grip on that? I don't have time otherwise. I'm able to spend a little time learning, but the cost/benefit equation is making me think that Zope just isn't ready for prime time, which is a shame since I looks like Zope could provide a quantum leap foreward in making the web the platform of choice.
Since the first part of your comments were addressed already. I'll take on the second part. <s> If you would, reread what you wrote above. Think about it. You wrote those words based on 'a' frustration. The pieces don't fit. Whether you look at it from an economic or technological view. You said; "looks like Zope could provide a quantum leap foreward in making the web the platform of choice." So this means that you realize that there is long-term benefit in using Zope. Yet, your 'cost/benefit equation' seems to be based on a short-term analysis. Is there another application framework that you already know well? If not, then you will have to spend some time getting ramped up with something. If you already have a tool that pays your salary, then you could spread out your Zope study over a longer period of time based on how much you can devote to it now. The payoff is being proficient with Zope in the future. Before I ever installed Zope I spent several weeks reading this list. Of course I didn't (still don't) read every post. But, you can gain a lot of knowledge seeing where other people are having & solving problems. In the past few months using Zope, I have gone to the source code maybe three times to find an answer. The list archives are a gold mine (thank you NIP, Ltd.) The HOWTOs are great (thank you authors). Just think about how much I have improved on my library science skills. <vbg>
I know this sounds just like a whiny complaint, but this is a complaint born out of a frustration at seeing what I think is a really great platform being relegated to a niche because the documentation isn't well organized.
ZDP volunteers are always welcomed. <s> A couple of weeks working hard on that project will show you where all the info is located AND be a service to the company & community that gave you Zope and all those great products. Cost = $0.00 Benefit = (you get to decide) That's a pretty good ratio no matter how you look at it. Have a great week, -- Tim Cook, President - FreePM,Inc. http://www.FreePM.com Office: (901) 884-4126 ONLINE DEMO: http://www.freepm.org:8080/FreePM
Hi Chris, (and Tim). First, I'll have to echo Chris's frustration, as I'm sure all of us have. I was particularly fortunate in that I went to work at a company as a database administrator and worked for a really top flight programmer. Yet!, even so, we have suffered through a really stiff learning curve. If you read WebTechniques magazine, a reviewer gave Zope very high marks. His only negative was that it features a very steep learning curve. A couple of thoughts. The zope.org site seems to be a combination of volunteer and digicool efforts. Since so much of the documentation is provided by us users, it can be widely scattered around, and the search engine does not always uncover what is actually there. The mail-list archives contain a gazillion links to very obscure howtos and hints. So, read those. There are real diamonds in them that you will not find with a standard search engine. (if you've done statistical programming, you know how hard it is to find the right tool for the job in the index of a SAS or SPSS manual, it's the question that drives us -- and the answer to the question you ask is not always the answer that will actually address your question). 2. When you run into a problem with something like, what do you do with a .tgz file, don't hesitate to post it to the list; you may get a dozen responses, but you will get an answer. for that by the way, if you are running a unix environment, you can unpack a .tgz file with: $ tar xzvf Filename-1.333.9.413.src.tgz (or whatever absurd numbering system is at work at the time). and you will get your files. N.B., a lot of times, zope files will extract into a lib/python/Products/ so i've gotten in the habit of moving my tgz file into a temp directory and untarring it there (then if it has the python path already in the tar file, i can move them into the /opt/zope/lib/python/Products/ directory. 3. look at the source code. it is sometimes scary, but you do learn how python classes are calling each other and how they are feeding data to each other. 4. don't lose faith. there is a powerful payback in the time you invest in the process. i am highly sceptical of all the testimonials that say someone was able to install and get a full zope install up and running in an afternoon. either they were in an sst flying west, or they have very advanced computer science and object oriented programming skills. keep posting your questions. ciao! greg. Gregory Haley DBA/Web Programmer Venaca, LLC.
Chris Cioffi wrote:
I know this is a common complaint, but I just found a particularly nasty example:
At (time_t)985668190 Greg Haley wrote:
A couple of thoughts. The zope.org site seems to be a combination of volunteer and digicool efforts. Since so much of the documentation is provided by us users, it can be widely scattered around, and the search engine does not always uncover what is actually there.
One of the many frustrations I have with Zope and its documentation is that the search results provide zero context. You see a long (and typically truncated) title that may or may not have much bearing, and no weighting, no summary, no snippets with the text you're searching for. Were it not for Google, I would be even more miserable than I am now.
2. When you run into a problem with something like, what do you do with a .tgz file, don't hesitate to post it to the list; you may get a dozen responses, but you will get an answer.
Er, not necessarily. Certainly, the mailing list is far superior to the IRC channel; I've never seen a question answered there. But I've asked what I thought were reasonably intelligent questions and never seen a response. If Dieter Maurer weren't so good at answering questions, the ratio of questions to answers would be even worse. As an example, I asked about the superfluous space added to the end of certain paths in Zope 2.3.0. No answer. Zope is in an unusual position. It is pretty good for rapid development of web applications, but only after weeks or months of trial and error can one learn enough to be productive. Organized documentation would help. A cleaner API would help. -John
"John R. Daily" wrote:
Zope is in an unusual position. It is pretty good for rapid development of web applications, but only after weeks or months of trial and error can one learn enough to be productive. Organized documentation would help. A cleaner API would help.
Zope is open source folks. Feel free to pitch in at any time. --sam -- ------------------------------------------------ "It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive" --John Wayne Bobbitt
participants (6)
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Chris Cioffi -
ghaley＠mail.venaca.com -
John R. Daily -
Ron Bickers -
sam gendler -
Tim Cook