RE: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful
From: zope-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-bounces@zope.org] On Behalf Of Subject: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful
The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the sixth result here: http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions
Really? For me, this is the sixth result: http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/resetting_zopes_session_timeout .html I'm assuming that is not what you meant. Interestingly, I couldn't find the Zope book in the first six *PAGES* of results. Perhaps Google gives you a different result than me for some reason, but I entered it just like you typed it. The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.
I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow? By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like: Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people seem rude or stupid even when they're not. Reply to a first offender off-line. There is no need of public humiliation for someone who may have made an honest mistake. A real newbie may not know how to search archives or where the FAQ is stored or posted. If you can't help, don't hinder. Ask probing questions to elicit more details. While just muttering RTFM is sometimes justified when replying to someone who is just a lazy slob, a pointer to documentation (even if it's just a suggestion to Google for a key phrase) is better.
- Michael Bernstein
-- Mike
--On Freitag, 24. September 2004 16:13 Uhr -0400 "Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com> wrote:
From: zope-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-bounces@zope.org] On Behalf Of Subject: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful
The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the sixth result here: http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions
Really? For me, this is the sixth result:
http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/resetting_zopes_session_timeout .html
I'm assuming that is not what you meant.
Interestingly, I couldn't find the Zope book in the first six *PAGES* of results. Perhaps Google gives you a different result than me for some reason, but I entered it just like you typed it.
The current Zope Book based on Zope 2.6 has a complete chapter on Sessions. In fact it is one of the best written chapters in the complete book. And reading this chapter is at least something that everyone should when working with sessions. It's rude of people to complain if they get pointed to documentation...especially to this one. Everyone should have a certain amount of intelligence to perform such basic tasks as reading and doing investigations. -aj
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:13:58 -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the sixth result here: http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions
Really? For me, this is the sixth result:
http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/resetting_zopes_session_timeout.htm...
I'm assuming that is not what you meant.
Interestingly, I couldn't find the Zope book in the first six *PAGES* of results. Perhaps Google gives you a different result than me for some reason, but I entered it just like you typed it.
You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for 'zope+sessions'. Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.
I think searching Google for 'zope sessions' is reasonably objective.
I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?
From the 'Before you ask' section:
"Before asking a technical question by email, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following: 1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web. 2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual. 3. [snip]"
By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like: [snip]
Sure, I've read that too. Doesn't really apply here as he *got* a good answer to his first question, then proceeded to ask further questions that he could have found the answers to himself with little effort, at which point I'm not inclined to insist that further courtesies (and they *are* courtesies, not an entitlement) be extended. Being polite as you waste other people's time doesn't earn you any points. So he got a 'Read the API' answer (not even remotely a flame), which elicited a 'nicely done' comment from Jonathan, prompting a *very* rude response from Asad, after which Andreas gave a polite rejoinder, at which point you started jumping down people's throats for not spoon-feeding him the answer he wanted. Do you *want* the remaining experts to stop frequenting the general Zope list? -- Michael Bernstein
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 18:28, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for 'zope+sessions'. Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
FWIW, when I click on the provided URL I don't see the Session chapter of the Zope book as any direct result until the 27th link. And it's the one at ZopeWiki.org, which isn't really "canonical". I find this strange, given that Google is typically so good at this kind of thing and given that you apparently see different results. Regardless, I can sympathize with both sides of this argument. I have been on both sides in the past. IMO: - the questioner should try to provide a roundup of the things he has already tried and might try soon ("I tried X, I tried Y, neither of them worked, I am considering doing Z, is that a good idea?" and so forth.) - when a questioner gets a response that isn't satisfactory and feels compelled to reask, he should state exactly why the original response was unsatisfactory. "That doesn't seem right" is not a good explanation of why something is unsatisfactory. A better one would be "that doesn't work because it causes X...". - if a responder doesn't feel like he has to provide a detailed answer because it's an RTFM question, it would be nice of him to give a URL or another detailed description of where in TFM to look. If he doesn't have the time to do this, he might consider not responding at all. OTOH, sometime the slightest clues are useful, so it's somewhat of a judgment call. - a responder should be courteous and not harsh. This is just normal human interaction. Being smart about a subject does not itself give you a license to be discourteous to others. OTOH, IT people in general have a somewhat well-deserved reputation as being obstreporous; this is mostly because (like the Dutch ;-) they typically lack tact. This comes across on maillists as well as in real life. Most of the time it's not malicious, it's just more efficient than actually taking the time to be courteous. Germans seem to exhibit this behavior more frequently than other contributors. ;-) If you understand this, you can usually get along quite well with them. - C
The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.
I think searching Google for 'zope sessions' is reasonably objective.
I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?
From the 'Before you ask' section:
"Before asking a technical question by email, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following:
1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web. 2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual. 3. [snip]"
By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like: [snip]
Sure, I've read that too. Doesn't really apply here as he *got* a good answer to his first question, then proceeded to ask further questions that he could have found the answers to himself with little effort, at which point I'm not inclined to insist that further courtesies (and they *are* courtesies, not an entitlement) be extended. Being polite as you waste other people's time doesn't earn you any points.
So he got a 'Read the API' answer (not even remotely a flame), which elicited a 'nicely done' comment from Jonathan, prompting a *very* rude response from Asad, after which Andreas gave a polite rejoinder, at which point you started jumping down people's throats for not spoon-feeding him the answer he wanted.
Do you *want* the remaining experts to stop frequenting the general Zope list?
-- Michael Bernstein
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@plope.com>
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 18:28, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for 'zope+sessions'. Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
FWIW, when I click on the provided URL I don't see the Session chapter of the Zope book as any direct result until the 27th link. And it's the one at ZopeWiki.org, which isn't really "canonical". I find this strange, given that Google is typically so good at this kind of thing and given that you apparently see different results.
Regardless, I can sympathize with both sides of this argument. I have been on both sides in the past. IMO:
- the questioner should try to provide a roundup of the things he has already tried and might try soon ("I tried X, I tried Y, neither of them worked, I am considering doing Z, is that a good idea?" and so forth.)
- when a questioner gets a response that isn't satisfactory and feels compelled to reask, he should state exactly why the original response was unsatisfactory. "That doesn't seem right" is not a good explanation of why something is unsatisfactory. A better one would be "that doesn't work because it causes X...".
- if a responder doesn't feel like he has to provide a detailed answer because it's an RTFM question, it would be nice of him to give a URL or another detailed description of where in TFM to look. If he doesn't have the time to do this, he might consider not responding at all. OTOH, sometime the slightest clues are useful, so it's somewhat of a judgment call.
- a responder should be courteous and not harsh. This is just normal human interaction. Being smart about a subject does not itself give you a license to be discourteous to others. OTOH, IT people in general have a somewhat well-deserved reputation as being obstreporous; this is mostly because (like the Dutch ;-) they typically lack tact. This comes across on maillists as well as in real life. Most of the time it's not malicious, it's just more efficient than actually taking the time to be courteous. Germans seem to exhibit this behavior more frequently than other contributors. ;-) If you understand this, you can usually get along quite well with them.
+ 1 Just to testify on the evolution of the list's mood, there was a time when we were recognized as one of the most friendly OS community, meaning times when "read the source Luke :) " could've been taken as the worst response. I understand to frequent responders. They have the Zen, they are quite generous, and they have the right to not to answer to how to deal with a cold. On the other hand I also understand the urgency of some doubts, even though they were about fully documented subjects. As we all agree that to learn Zope is quite a hike, sometimes newbies need a quick response ir order to continue the hiking. Sometimes you just can't stand in the middle of a river to read a map. So I agree to Chris' guidelines. :) Ausum
The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.
I think searching Google for 'zope sessions' is reasonably objective.
I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?
From the 'Before you ask' section:
"Before asking a technical question by email, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following:
1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web. 2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual. 3. [snip]"
By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like: [snip]
Sure, I've read that too. Doesn't really apply here as he *got* a good answer to his first question, then proceeded to ask further questions that he could have found the answers to himself with little effort, at which point I'm not inclined to insist that further courtesies (and they *are* courtesies, not an entitlement) be extended. Being polite as you waste other people's time doesn't earn you any points.
So he got a 'Read the API' answer (not even remotely a flame), which elicited a 'nicely done' comment from Jonathan, prompting a *very* rude response from Asad, after which Andreas gave a polite rejoinder, at which point you started jumping down people's throats for not spoon-feeding him the answer he wanted.
Do you *want* the remaining experts to stop frequenting the general Zope list?
-- Michael Bernstein
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:25:56 -0400, Chris McDonough wrote:
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 18:28, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for 'zope+sessions'. Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
FWIW, when I click on the provided URL I don't see the Session chapter of the Zope book as any direct result until the 27th link. And it's the one at ZopeWiki.org, which isn't really "canonical". I find this strange, given that Google is typically so good at this kind of thing and given that you apparently see different results.
Darn, now *I'm* getting the same results as you, Chris. Google must have done an index update, and not for the better. Well, if I get bad results from searching the web in general, I restrict my search to zope.org: http://www.google.com/search?q=sessions+site%3Azope.org Now the Sessions chapter is the *first* result. Or I can search the mailing lists (not very helpful in this particular case): http://www.google.com/search?q=sessions+site%3Alists.zope.org
Regardless, I can sympathize with both sides of this argument. I have been on both sides in the past. IMO:
- the questioner should try to provide a roundup of the things he has already tried and might try soon [snip]
- when a questioner gets a response that isn't satisfactory and feels compelled to reask, he should state exactly why the original response was unsatisfactory. [snip]
- if a responder doesn't feel like he has to provide a detailed answer because it's an RTFM question, it would be nice of him to give a URL or another detailed description of where in TFM to look. If he doesn't have the time to do this, he might consider not responding at all. OTOH, sometime the slightest clues are useful, so it's somewhat of a judgment call.
- a responder should be courteous and not harsh. [snip]
I agree with your guidelines, Chris, and I've been on both sides too. I will however note that the first to be discourteous in this *particular* case was the questioner, not the respondent (theories on German propensities toward the use of etiquette notwithstanding). -- Michael Bernstein
My Two Cents, God... life sucks when you don't have the answers... been there too often. Put your ego in your pocket, and suck it up... Be happy anyone reads about your problem.. Everyone's got their own set. If someone is rude or disrespectful or even short with you... and you get the clue you need... who benefitted.. you did... Thank them for their time, and move along. My advice, appreciation goes a long way... tell them how long you suffered before you asked... and how much they saved your butt... let them know they spent their time on someone who appreciated that time spent. And remember to pay-it-forward to the next poor soul missing an answer. It's supposed to feel good to help someone... it's amazing how egos can ruin that. -Jon Cyr cyrj@cyr.info
Chris McDonough wrote:
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 18:28, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for 'zope+sessions'. Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
FWIW, when I click on the provided URL I don't see the Session chapter of the Zope book as any direct result until the 27th link. And it's the one at ZopeWiki.org, which isn't really "canonical". I find this strange, given that Google is typically so good at this kind of thing and given that you apparently see different results.
Regardless, I can sympathize with both sides of this argument. I have been on both sides in the past. IMO:
- the questioner should try to provide a roundup of the things he has already tried and might try soon ("I tried X, I tried Y, neither of them worked, I am considering doing Z, is that a good idea?" and so forth.)
Completely AMEN!
- when a questioner gets a response that isn't satisfactory and feels compelled to reask, he should state exactly why the original response was unsatisfactory. "That doesn't seem right" is not a good explanation of why something is unsatisfactory. A better one would be "that doesn't work because it causes X...".
- if a responder doesn't feel like he has to provide a detailed answer because it's an RTFM question, it would be nice of him to give a URL or another detailed description of where in TFM to look. If he doesn't have the time to do this, he might consider not responding at all. OTOH, sometime the slightest clues are useful, so it's somewhat of a judgment call.
This point and the above one could be a little difficult (don't forget some people here don't speak english as native languaje, for example myself: I'm spanish)
- a responder should be courteous and not harsh. This is just normal human interaction. Being smart about a subject does not itself give you a license to be discourteous to others. OTOH, IT people in general have a somewhat well-deserved reputation as being obstreporous; this is mostly because (like the Dutch ;-) they typically lack tact. This comes across on maillists as well as in real life. Most of the time it's not malicious, it's just more efficient than actually taking the time to be courteous. Germans seem to exhibit this behavior more frequently than other contributors. ;-) If you understand this, you can usually get along quite well with them.
Completely agree again. This is not a negotiation, this is people helping others
- C
The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.
I think searching Google for 'zope sessions' is reasonably objective.
I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?
From the 'Before you ask' section:
"Before asking a technical question by email, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following:
1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web. 2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual. 3. [snip]"
By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like: [snip]
Sure, I've read that too. Doesn't really apply here as he *got* a good answer to his first question, then proceeded to ask further questions that he could have found the answers to himself with little effort, at which point I'm not inclined to insist that further courtesies (and they *are* courtesies, not an entitlement) be extended. Being polite as you waste other people's time doesn't earn you any points.
So he got a 'Read the API' answer (not even remotely a flame), which elicited a 'nicely done' comment from Jonathan, prompting a *very* rude response from Asad, after which Andreas gave a polite rejoinder, at which point you started jumping down people's throats for not spoon-feeding him the answer he wanted.
Do you *want* the remaining experts to stop frequenting the general Zope list?
-- Michael Bernstein
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Dne sobota, 25. září 2004 05:25 Chris McDonough napsal(a):
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 18:28, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:
You typed it in wrong. If you click the URL I provided above, Google searches for 'zope sessions'. You obviously searched for 'zope+sessions'. Plus signs in URLs are spaces.
FWIW, when I click on the provided URL I don't see the Session chapter of the Zope book as any direct result until the 27th link. And it's the one at ZopeWiki.org, which isn't really "canonical". I find this strange, given that Google is typically so good at this kind of thing and given that you apparently see different results.
FYI google uses farm of dislocated servers, which gives for each territory slightly different results. For example if I make searching from home and send the google link into work, it gives totally different results. And I my home and work have 50km distance. So placing google link could not be as relevant. Regards, -- Jaroslav Lukesh ----------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail can not contain any viruses because I use Linux
Hmmm... Couple of comments about etiquette and documentation... I'm a newbie programmer (not just a newbie to zope), and I usually spend hours researching any topic before I ever ask a question. That said, I find the zope and plone web sites unhelpful to the extreme. I've read the zope book through, as well as other zope manuals, but I usually need practical examples. When I google search for help, I don't always know what to look for, or what I try to look for is not what I find. That doesn't mean that the writers aren't doing a great job -- you are! But not everyone has good search skills, and not everyone will know how to interpret and apply what is written. A newbies list would serve one terrific purpose: Anyone who is on the list to answer questions -- presumably the same people who do it now, like Dieter and Andreas -- would understand that the subscribers will include people like me, who try our best and still need a lot of support. Anyone who doesn't want to deal with that can choose not to subscribe or answer. Unfortunately, there will always be an oversupply of people with questions and far too few to answer. For those who do support us, we hope you know that we appreciate what you do. Please be patient with us! All that aside, email is a horrible medium for communication. What you write can be interpreted so many ways, depending on language, culture, and individual perception. So it's not necessary to use rude words to come across that way. I'm sure that (except possibly within the current thread) no one *meant* to be rude. BTW, I intended this email to be a friendly =-) commentary. --- "Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com> wrote:
From: zope-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-bounces@zope.org] On Behalf Of Subject: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful
The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the sixth result here: http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions
Really? For me, this is the sixth result:
http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/resetting_zopes_session_timeout
.html
I'm assuming that is not what you meant.
Interestingly, I couldn't find the Zope book in the first six *PAGES* of results. Perhaps Google gives you a different result than me for some reason, but I entered it just like you typed it.
The point is to say where to find the information is "obvious" is clearly subjective.
I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
I'm curious, what part specifically did Asad not follow?
By the way, did you happen to see the part about how to answer them? There is a lot of good stuff there like:
Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people seem rude or stupid even when they're not.
Reply to a first offender off-line. There is no need of public humiliation for someone who may have made an honest mistake. A real newbie may not know how to search archives or where the FAQ is stored or posted.
If you can't help, don't hinder.
Ask probing questions to elicit more details.
While just muttering RTFM is sometimes justified when replying to someone who is just a lazy slob, a pointer to documentation (even if it's just a suggestion to Google for a key phrase) is better.
- Michael Bernstein
-- Mike
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
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participants (9)
-
Andreas Jung -
Ausum Studio -
Chris McDonough -
Garito -
Jaroslav Lukesh -
Jonathan Cyr -
Michael R. Bernstein -
Sophia Grimm -
Tiller, Michael (M.M.)