Is Zope 3 being developed for programmers only?
I have recently been looking at Zope Page Templates with a view to switching over to them in preparation for Zope 3. However as I understand it people are encouraged to use Python rather than DTML when using TAL. TAL is not a replacement for DTML so what is the future for people who really like Zope and have DTML experience but not Python experience? Jan Smith WebMster OzZope http://www.ozzope.org
Hi Jan It's not the intention to remove DTML from Zope. As I understand you will always be able to use it. Python scripts, etc have the advantage that are clearer when the expressions become complex. Know as well that you don't need python in TAL. You can also use simple path and string expressions. I used to use DTML a lot. When first looking at TAL, I was afraid about it and didn't it liked that much. However after some days, extensive using it, looking several things several times up in the online manual I started to like it. Nowadays I almost only use TAL. Also, why don't you visit EuroPython2002 : www.europython2002.org Most of the Zope3 developers (if not all), including the grandfather Jim Fulton will be there. There will be a Half-day! Zope3 Tutorial and 2 Zope3 talks. I think the congress is the place to get a first public view on Zope3... so it's the place to be...
I have recently been looking at Zope Page Templates with a view to switching over to them in preparation for Zope 3. However as I understand it people are encouraged to use Python rather than DTML when using TAL.
TAL is not a replacement for DTML so what is the future for people who really like Zope and have DTML experience but not Python experience?
Jan Smith WebMster OzZope http://www.ozzope.org
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Why dont you start to use Python scripts.Just one little step after the other. You will see, that it is not harder to use but will evetually give you much nicer, better maintainable code. And if need bee, you can call your dtml-medthod from TAL easily. Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Smith" <jan@curpheymedia.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 12:26 PM Subject: [Zope] Is Zope 3 being developed for programmers only?
I have recently been looking at Zope Page Templates with a view to switching over to them in preparation for Zope 3. However as I understand it people are encouraged to use Python rather than DTML when using TAL.
TAL is not a replacement for DTML so what is the future for people who really like Zope and have DTML experience but not Python experience?
Jan Smith WebMster OzZope http://www.ozzope.org
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
If you're writing logic in DTML then you're programming. Limiting your programming to a language that is very poorly designed for the task (logic instead of presentation) will not help either your results or the development of your programming skills. Python is actually a very easy language to learn -- one of the best around for beginners. I strongly suggest that you start writing a few Python Scripts for logic tasks that you're now doing in DTML and calling them from DTML or ZPT. --On Thursday, May 30, 2002 08:26:22 PM +1000 Jan Smith <jan@curpheymedia.com> wrote:
I have recently been looking at Zope Page Templates with a view to switching over to them in preparation for Zope 3. However as I understand it people are encouraged to use Python rather than DTML when using TAL.
TAL is not a replacement for DTML so what is the future for people who really like Zope and have DTML experience but not Python experience?
Jan Smith WebMster OzZope http://www.ozzope.org
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On Thursday, May 30, 2002, at 08:26 PM, Jan Smith wrote:
I have recently been looking at Zope Page Templates with a view to switching over to them in preparation for Zope 3. However as I understand it people are encouraged to use Python rather than DTML when using TAL.
You can include the output from DTML methods inside a ZPT document, just like any other method including PythonScripts. What you cannot do is embed DTML inside your ZPT document. What ZPT is actually encouraging is to separate the presentation and logic - there is an argument to be made that the python: TALES expressions should not be used (and indeed, I think Kevin mentioned at the last OzZope meeting that now his product is up and running, he is in the process of migrating these expressions out of the ZPT and into their own libraries). One thing of note - if you are using expressions in your DTML, you are already writing Python: <dtml-var "foo.absolute_url()"> This level of logic can be used in ZPT almost unchanged: <span tal:replace="python:foo.absolute_url()">URL</span> Or you may prefer the TALES syntax to make things nicer to read: <span tal:replace="here/foo/absolute_url">URL</span> I think the reason people are encouraged to use Python rather than DTML is how incredibly disgusting it is as a programming language, and a real pain to write and maintain. This is not always obvious to people who have come to DTML without much programming experience, people who have become used to this state of affairs, and people who don't even realize they are programming at all. It tends to be *very* obvious to ex-Perl programmers who moved to Python - the more vocal anti-DTML crowd seem to all have worked with Perl at some time :-)
TAL is not a replacement for DTML so what is the future for people who really like Zope and have DTML experience but not Python experience?
If you find that the DTML you used to write cannot be implemented in ZPT, you know enough about programming to go through the Python tutorial in a day or two and be much more productive. The time spent will more than pay itself off. *Don't* go and buy a Python book, as most of the stuff mentioned will be utterly useless to you unless you are writing Python products. And don't think you have to learn the Library Reference for the same reasons. I feel that Guido's tutorial is the quickest and best way of getting up to speed. Unfortunately DTML will not go away until a replacement template language is developed that addresses the needs that ZPT cannot (by design). ZPT is only useful for generating XML or HTML documents - if you want to include dynamic content in your CSS style sheets or are writing ZSQL methods you will still need it. Now that PythonScripts exist, it would be possible to redesign DTML to be much more usable but I don't believe there are any projects underway to do this. -- Stuart Bishop <zen@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/
participants (5)
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Dan L. Pierson -
Jan Smith -
Robert Rottermann -
Stuart Bishop -
Tom Deprez