Hello, I recently started to work with php (+ Apache), and now I found Zope. At the first sight, Zope seems to be faster than php, but I don't know if it's my php application that is not so complex than Zopes objects. So I would like to ask, is there a benchmarks or articles or any sources that discuss about performance and developing PHP versus Zope? Also, i am cuirious, was Zope developed to replace PHP in the future? And what if PHP comes up with an interface like Zope, so what would be better? Many questions, isn't it .... Any comments are welcome. Thanks. Nikolai
In a technological sense, comparing PHP and Zope is a little bit silly, since they are so very different. In a practical sense, comparing them is extremely reasonable, since there are a wide variety of web development tasks which can be approached with either PHP or Zope. Performance comparisons are the toughest. PHP is no slouch -- it is used for some very high traffic sites, including freshmeat.net and lots of others. Zope, on the other hand, offers some features which will cause it to outperform stock PHP in many cases. PHP is a scripting language for website development. In contrast, Zope is described as an application server. As such, Zope includes features like pooling of database connections and caching of database query results. These are not as easy to do in technologies like PHP, and they can make a huge difference in the performance of database-driven sites. We implemented www.CodeCatalog.com twice -- once in Zope, and once in PHP. The Zope version ended up much, much faster. Your mileage may vary. I'm pretty sure it's possible to get good performance from PHP and Zope, if your situation is appropriate and you're willing to work at it. I am equally sure that it's pretty easy to get lousy performance from either PHP or Zope, if your situation is especially inappropriate, and you're willing to live entirely off the low hanging fruit. There are lots of other comparisons which could be made, and have been made. These comparisons tend to degenerate into flamewars pretty quickly, although I see no reason for this to happen. Objective comparisons of two technologies like this are useful. I happen to like both, although Zope certainly gets an increasing share of my attention. Zope's three-tiered architecture and web-based authoring tends to make the tool more approachable by people who may be less technical, and more annoying to hardcore programmers who find they have a new paradigm to learn. The gap between the experiences of these two groups of people tends to narrow very quickly as people start to grasp the soul of what Zope is all about. People who are learning Zope tend to periodically burst out of their office with a desperate need to tell someone about the latest core principle of Zope which they finally came to understand. The more you have these "light bulb" experiences, the cooler Zope is. PHP isn't like that. It's an excellent tool, but it's really just a scripting language. It isn't everything that Zope is, and it doesn't try to be. Compare PHP to Python Compare Zope to Midgard. BTW, the safest way to do those comparisons is *probably* to do them somewhere other than on this mailing list. :-) --
Hello, I recently started to work with php (+ Apache), and now I found Zope. At the first sight, Zope seems to be faster than php, but I don't know if it's my php application that is not so complex than Zopes objects. So I would like to ask, is there a benchmarks or articles or any sources that discuss about performance and developing PHP versus Zope? Also, i am cuirious, was Zope developed to replace PHP in the future? And what if PHP comes up with an interface like Zope, so what would be better? Many questions, isn't it ....
Any comments are welcome.
Thanks. Nikolai
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation eric@sourcegear.com
Very intersting stuff ... I think I will need finaly to try Zope my self to see how it is. But I have one more question, why they decided to base Zope on Python and not other language? Regards niko "Eric W. Sink" wrote:
In a technological sense, comparing PHP and Zope is a little bit silly, since they are so very different. In a practical sense, comparing them is extremely reasonable, since there are a wide variety of web development tasks which can be approached with either PHP or Zope.
Performance comparisons are the toughest. PHP is no slouch -- it is used for some very high traffic sites, including freshmeat.net and lots of others.
Zope, on the other hand, offers some features which will cause it to outperform stock PHP in many cases. PHP is a scripting language for website development. In contrast, Zope is described as an application server. As such, Zope includes features like pooling of database connections and caching of database query results. These are not as easy to do in technologies like PHP, and they can make a huge difference in the performance of database-driven sites. We implemented www.CodeCatalog.com twice -- once in Zope, and once in PHP. The Zope version ended up much, much faster. Your mileage may vary.
I'm pretty sure it's possible to get good performance from PHP and Zope, if your situation is appropriate and you're willing to work at it.
I am equally sure that it's pretty easy to get lousy performance from either PHP or Zope, if your situation is especially inappropriate, and you're willing to live entirely off the low hanging fruit.
There are lots of other comparisons which could be made, and have been made. These comparisons tend to degenerate into flamewars pretty quickly, although I see no reason for this to happen. Objective comparisons of two technologies like this are useful. I happen to like both, although Zope certainly gets an increasing share of my attention.
Zope's three-tiered architecture and web-based authoring tends to make the tool more approachable by people who may be less technical, and more annoying to hardcore programmers who find they have a new paradigm to learn. The gap between the experiences of these two groups of people tends to narrow very quickly as people start to grasp the soul of what Zope is all about. People who are learning Zope tend to periodically burst out of their office with a desperate need to tell someone about the latest core principle of Zope which they finally came to understand. The more you have these "light bulb" experiences, the cooler Zope is.
PHP isn't like that. It's an excellent tool, but it's really just a scripting language. It isn't everything that Zope is, and it doesn't try to be.
Compare PHP to Python
Compare Zope to Midgard.
BTW, the safest way to do those comparisons is *probably* to do them somewhere other than on this mailing list. :-)
--
Hello, I recently started to work with php (+ Apache), and now I found Zope. At the first sight, Zope seems to be faster than php, but I don't know if it's my php application that is not so complex than Zopes objects. So I would like to ask, is there a benchmarks or articles or any sources that discuss about performance and developing PHP versus Zope? Also, i am cuirious, was Zope developed to replace PHP in the future? And what if PHP comes up with an interface like Zope, so what would be better? Many questions, isn't it ....
Any comments are welcome.
Thanks. Nikolai
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation eric@sourcegear.com
On Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 09:20:39AM -0600, Nikolai Vladychevski wrote:
Very intersting stuff ... I think I will need finaly to try Zope my self to see how it is. But I have one more question, why they decided to base Zope on Python and not other language?
No such decision was ever made. When Paul Everitt and Rob Page founded Digital Creations (a history I know only from Paul's and Rob's telling me, I could well be out for lunch on this), Paul was getting quite heavily into Python already. He convinced Rob that it might be a good language to base their development on. They then hired Jim Fulton, then already a very active Python contributor (he hosted, if IIRC, the 3rd and/or 4th python conference or something). Under his technical guidance software was developed that only in November/December 1998 came together to form Zope. Many parts of what is now Zope, like Bobo (predecessor of the ZODB), DTML Templates, Extension Classes and Acquisition where already Open Source, and heavily used by the python community. When Zope came to be, all those parts were mixed with things like Acquaduct (now database adapters and ZSQL Methods), and Principia (now the web management interface and many of the stock Zope objects like File and Folder), that were commercially sold by Digital Creations. So, python made Zope and its power possible. If you now decide that you want to go and build Zope in a different language, you will first have to try and build all those parts from which Zope came to be. And this will be pretty hard, if not impossible. Pythons clarity, OO orientation, extensibility and last but not least Jim's technical excellence with python will be greatly missing. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineer mailto:mj@digicool.com | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server ---------------------------------------------
Nikolai Vladychevski wrote:
Very intersting stuff ... I think I will need finaly to try Zope my self to see how it is. But I have one more question, why they decided to base Zope on Python and not other language?
Preference. Careful Nikolai, a question like this is pure flamebait. ;) -Michel
Michel Pelletier wrote:
Nikolai Vladychevski wrote:
Very intersting stuff ... I think I will need finaly to try Zope my self to see how it is. But I have one more question, why they decided to base Zope on Python and not other language?
Preference. Careful Nikolai, a question like this is pure flamebait. ;)
no more questions, I got it all now ;) thanks for help guys niko
-Michel
participants (5)
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Eric W. Sink -
Martijn Pieters -
Michel Pelletier -
Nikolai Vladychevski -
Nikolai Vladychevski