"yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope." Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling. Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product. On 11/13/06, Andreas Jung <lists@zopyx.com> wrote:
--On 13. November 2006 07:24:20 -0600 Perry Smith <pedz@easesoftware.com> wrote:
On Nov 13, 2006, at 6:49 AM, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote:
Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 12:11 PM:
Hafeliel wrote:
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty
Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish.
I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back...
yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope.
Sure, the man might be mistaken and misinformed, but if it is hard to understand the tool, maybe some docs or references might be in order, thoughI fail to see anythign zope related in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll unless we mean to describe the attitude towards criticism we/some of us don't like (like to deal with?).
I probably sounds like a broken record but:
My suggestion to the Zope developers is look at Apache's documentation. Its all there, complete, in one place. Wiki's do not document. They
are
for discussions and new ideas, etc. Internal docs are just for a few limited instances. They require you to be working in Zope at the time, they can not be printed, they can not really be searched.
This is all true but historical reasons and because "the community" did not help much to improve the situation. So the current situation is basically a mirror of its community?! Anyway, this wiki contains a bunch of false information or information written by a person that has little idea about Zope. If someone comes up with such a wiki one can expect solid and right information but at least half of the stuff is just wrong and some parts of the wiki really deserve the predicate "written by a numpty"...sorry but I prefer to make clear statements :-)
-aj
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- michael
+-------[ michael nt milne ]---------------------- | "yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new | followers to zope." | | Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label | that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The So if I start a wiki, making a tonne of incorrect, and ignorant statements about plone, use these false/misleading statements as a basis for replacing plone, and then post it to the plone list trying to get support for replacing plone, that list will support me right? 100% ? | whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling. You need to trust that those you can identify as senior members of the community, are telling the rest of you that this guy is full of crap. There have some dubious postings of late. More are coming I can assure you. The single thing that should have alerted you that something was up. *** Chris Withers and I agreed on something d8) Imagine for a moment this guy came to you for a job, claiming 25+ years of dev experience, and 2+ years of Zope experience. How many of the following would you expect him to know about? Let's just say Zope 2 even. o REQUEST.SESSION o bobobase_modification_time o User Folders - CookieCrumbler - SimpleUserFolder - LDAPUserFolder - exUserFolder - PAS - anything at all in http://zope.org/Products/user_management o metal:define-macro o metal:use-macro o metal:define-slot o metal:fill-slot o tal:replace="structure ..." o Zope Security Tab? o General web security o OO development o Security overrides for python scripts o Abstraction, encapsulation Would you be pissed at having employed this person only to find out they didn't know any of these things? The people slagging this guys are pissed. Because the guy has done NO research, and no reading whatsover, and then claims Zope needs to be rewritten (of course, it IS already being rewritten, which shows how much research he did, but, not for any of the reasons he listed [because they are crap]). What if he claimed to be able to write a python Product, but, also claimed they didn't know how to subclass OFS.Image to keep the creation date? Would you believe them? Would you give the guy any credibility? Are you in a position to evaluate the claims? | Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that | the Zope list gets? Yes. Because it's larger and more complicated than Zope itself? You factored in the CMF list traffic too right? | because it is a more mature and constructive support | environment which actually helps promote the product. That's just a bizarre claim (one, I imagine based more on opinion than fact?) One could claim that the number of postings is proportional to the amount of help required, which is almost certainly proportional to the experience of the userbase and the complexity of the subject. These are the types of bizarre claims that generate sneering name-calling replies d8) My counter claims; o Zope list generates less traffic because it is a mature, well-documented piece of software well understood by its userbase, and supported through other media such as IRC (where #zope gets far more plone questions than it ought to because "Everyone in #plone is asleep" is oft lamented). o Newbies will post regardless of the tone of the list, because for the most part they don't read anything, including the list-charter, list-archives, the FAQ, or any of the other documentation available. o Noone is not going to use software because of a hostile userbase. Linux proves this. In fact it might make the case for us being more offensive. d8) -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
Andrew Milton wrote:
+-------[ michael nt milne ]---------------------- | "yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new | followers to zope."
Oh, he's still alive, how unfortunate... Thanks, Andrew, for helping him avoid my procmail rule :-(
| whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling.
You need to trust that those you can identify as senior members of the community, are telling the rest of you that this guy is full of crap.
Sadly, Michael is coming from the "full of crap" position himself... then again, I thought it took one to know one... apparently not ;-)
The single thing that should have alerted you that something was up.
*** Chris Withers and I agreed on something d8)
Yeah, this is somewhat of a system invariant ;-)
Imagine for a moment this guy came to you for a job, claiming 25+ years of dev experience, and 2+ years of Zope experience.
Michael wouldn't know a Zope developer if one bit him on the nose...
The people slagging this guys are pissed. Because the guy has done NO research, and no reading whatsover, and then claims Zope needs to be rewritten (of course, it IS already being rewritten, which shows how much research he did, but, not for any of the reasons he listed [because they are crap]).
My point exactly... Interestingly, I offer Nancy Donnelly as a counter point here. She's similarly new here, but is trying hard to learn and understand, and is taking a "hey, these guys can help me" attitude. Sure enough, she's getting plenty of help... It's not all newbies who get into trouble here, just those who ask for it... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem On 11/13/06, Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
Andrew Milton wrote:
+-------[ michael nt milne ]---------------------- | "yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new | followers to zope."
Oh, he's still alive, how unfortunate...
Thanks, Andrew, for helping him avoid my procmail rule :-(
| whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling.
You need to trust that those you can identify as senior members of the community, are telling the rest of you that this guy is full of crap.
Sadly, Michael is coming from the "full of crap" position himself... then again, I thought it took one to know one... apparently not ;-)
The single thing that should have alerted you that something was up.
*** Chris Withers and I agreed on something d8)
Yeah, this is somewhat of a system invariant ;-)
Imagine for a moment this guy came to you for a job, claiming 25+ years of dev experience, and 2+ years of Zope experience.
Michael wouldn't know a Zope developer if one bit him on the nose...
The people slagging this guys are pissed. Because the guy has done NO research, and no reading whatsover, and then claims Zope needs to be rewritten (of course, it IS already being rewritten, which shows how much research he did, but, not for any of the reasons he listed [because they are crap]).
My point exactly...
Interestingly, I offer Nancy Donnelly as a counter point here. She's similarly new here, but is trying hard to learn and understand, and is taking a "hey, these guys can help me" attitude. Sure enough, she's getting plenty of help...
It's not all newbies who get into trouble here, just those who ask for it...
Chris
-- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
-- michael
+-------[ michael nt milne ]----------------------
Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling.
You should post only if you have something to say. You did not and you can't comment on the content of the wiki.
Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets?
Because people use Plone and not Zope. Many Plone users identify Plone with Zope and don't recognize that Plone is a tiny CMS layer on top of Zope and several other big software components.
Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product.
Speak with some Plone core developers. Some of them are also bored by ongoing laziness of a minority of ppl to use existing resources or to resolve very easy issues on their own. That's why a bunch of Zope and Plone developers are no longer available for giving help on -users lists. -aj
The Wiki doesn't completely slag off Zope. There are sections which talk about how powerful it is etc. This guy seems to be genuinely trying to get his head round Zope and it is a very steep learning curve. Ok, he should be more advanced in the subject than he is due to his experience but why attack the whole time? It seems to reveal a certain insecurity on the part of certain members. There's a terrible air of defensiveness on this list. My posting was in support of Darios comments which were sound. "because it is a mature, well-documented piece of software" mature yes, well-documented it is not. Plone has much better documentation which is often very helpful. This probably increases the traffic on the Plone lists due to users being more knowledgeable and more confident in posting issues. There are lots of variables and yes CMS traffic and experience are two, I agree. However I feel general tone is crucial. On 11/13/06, Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote:
+-------[ michael nt milne ]---------------------- | "yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new | followers to zope." | | Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label | that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The
So if I start a wiki, making a tonne of incorrect, and ignorant statements about plone, use these false/misleading statements as a basis for replacing plone, and then post it to the plone list trying to get support for replacing plone, that list will support me right? 100% ?
| whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling.
You need to trust that those you can identify as senior members of the community, are telling the rest of you that this guy is full of crap.
There have some dubious postings of late. More are coming I can assure you.
The single thing that should have alerted you that something was up.
*** Chris Withers and I agreed on something d8)
Imagine for a moment this guy came to you for a job, claiming 25+ years of dev experience, and 2+ years of Zope experience. How many of the following would you expect him to know about? Let's just say Zope 2 even.
o REQUEST.SESSION o bobobase_modification_time
o User Folders - CookieCrumbler - SimpleUserFolder - LDAPUserFolder - exUserFolder - PAS - anything at all in http://zope.org/Products/user_management
o metal:define-macro o metal:use-macro o metal:define-slot o metal:fill-slot o tal:replace="structure ..." o Zope Security Tab? o General web security o OO development o Security overrides for python scripts o Abstraction, encapsulation
Would you be pissed at having employed this person only to find out they didn't know any of these things?
The people slagging this guys are pissed. Because the guy has done NO research, and no reading whatsover, and then claims Zope needs to be rewritten (of course, it IS already being rewritten, which shows how much research he did, but, not for any of the reasons he listed [because they are crap]).
What if he claimed to be able to write a python Product, but, also claimed they didn't know how to subclass OFS.Image to keep the creation date?
Would you believe them?
Would you give the guy any credibility?
Are you in a position to evaluate the claims?
| Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that | the Zope list gets? Yes.
Because it's larger and more complicated than Zope itself? You factored in the CMF list traffic too right?
| because it is a more mature and constructive support | environment which actually helps promote the product.
That's just a bizarre claim (one, I imagine based more on opinion than fact?)
One could claim that the number of postings is proportional to the amount of help required, which is almost certainly proportional to the experience of the userbase and the complexity of the subject.
These are the types of bizarre claims that generate sneering name-calling replies d8)
My counter claims;
o Zope list generates less traffic because it is a mature, well-documented piece of software well understood by its userbase, and supported through other media such as IRC (where #zope gets far more plone questions than it ought to because "Everyone in #plone is asleep" is oft lamented).
o Newbies will post regardless of the tone of the list, because for the most part they don't read anything, including the list-charter, list-archives, the FAQ, or any of the other documentation available.
o Noone is not going to use software because of a hostile userbase. Linux proves this. In fact it might make the case for us being more offensive. d8)
-- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
-- michael
The problem is the original poster (Hafeliel) did not make a credible effort to learn Zope in his "years of experience" with the tool (as taking more than two years not to figure out bobobase_modification_time makes painfully clear) before complaining about it with a public site full of inaccurate information. It's OK to criticize, but if you do show up with a "I can save your project" attitude, you are expected to have a deep knowledge of what the real problems are and to be able to offer some useful suggestions. Otherwise, you are asking for a harsh reception. michael nt milne wrote:
"yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope."
Quite right. It's an ignorant attitude and one that itself deserves the label that it is prescribing. It's been prevalent for a long time on this list. The whole attitude here is one of sneering and schoolboy name calling.
Michael, michael nt milne wrote:
Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product.
Bollocks. :-) -- Regards, PhilK "Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate." -John M. Ford
Philip Kilner <phil@xfr.co.uk> wrote: Michael,
michael nt milne wrote:
Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product.
Bollocks.
:-)
:-) ok I exaggerated the claim slightly for effect but only *slightly*. Of course there are many variables in the reasons why the Plone list gets more postings but one thing is true - it does have more 'class', is populated by more rounded people and is massively more supportive. On 11/14/06, Philip Kilner <phil@xfr.co.uk> wrote:
Michael,
michael nt milne wrote:
Is there a reason that the Plone list gets 3 times the level of postings that the Zope list gets? Yes. because it is a more mature and constructive support environment which actually helps promote the product.
Bollocks.
:-)
--
Regards,
PhilK
"Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate." -John M. Ford
-- michael
participants (6)
-
Andreas Jung -
Andrew Milton -
Chris Withers -
michael nt milne -
Philip Kilner -
Ricardo L. A. Banffy