Someone has written a positive review of Zope over at Kuro5hin.org: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/21/184222/896> The responses so far tend to be from people who tried Zope and found it too confusing, big, and/or slow. -- Fred Yankowski fred@ontosys.com tel: +1.630.879.1312 OntoSys, Inc PGP keyID: 7B449345 fax: +1.630.879.1370 www.ontosys.com 38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510-9461, USA
From: "Fred Yankowski" <fred@ontosys.com>
<http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/21/184222/896>
The responses so far tend to be from people who tried Zope and found it too confusing, big, and/or slow.
And lot's of the classic "through-the-web development sucks, hence Zope sucks" argument. :-)
On Wednesday 24 March 2004 17:14, Fred Yankowski wrote:
Someone has written a positive review of Zope over at Kuro5hin.org:
I was just looking over the comments, and was saddened by some of them... but also they are understandable. I had many of the same difficulties and confusions mysellf, and it took me *years* of off-and-on fiddling to get over many of them (and some of them i'm still not over myself). I was thinking of replying to some of those posts with helpful tips; but found I can't remember my k5 login, it's been so long since i posted there. Don't really have time anyhow. Maybe some other helpful and knowledgeable Zope users might wander over to shed some light, if indeed they haven't already. Even where the disgruntled zope users and former users are wrong, it should be very instructive to Zope developers and documenters to see *where* they are wrong. Because these are very common issues a lot of people have who would otherwise love Zope. But then, a lot of these issues are already very well known (it's just a bit painful to see the dirty laundry hanging out in such an high trafficked area <-:). -- Tim Middleton | Cain Gang Ltd | Christianity didn't [...] for 20 centuries x@veX.net | www.Vex.Net | [...] shit Hallmark before a live studio...
From the introduction: "Recently I discovered Zope, and having understood its principles I decided to abandon my years of PHP experience in pursuit of a better way." I, like him, had this experience too. How many people on the zope mailing list haven't had the same career experience? Fred Yankowski wrote:
Someone has written a positive review of Zope over at Kuro5hin.org:
<http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/21/184222/896>
The responses so far tend to be from people who tried Zope and found it too confusing, big, and/or slow.
-- Peter Bengtsson, http://www.peterbe.com
Aloha, --- Peter Bengtsson <mail@peterbe.com> wrote:
From the introduction: "Recently I discovered Zope, and having understood its principles I decided to abandon my years of PHP experience in pursuit of a better way."
I, like him, had this experience too. How many people on the zope mailing list haven't had the same career experience?
I was just starting to go beyond static HTML and mess around with PHP (and a wee bit MySQL) when I heard about Zope and started looking into it (2.4.1 had just been released). It was, and still is, the conceptual design brilliance of Zope that I found most attractive. The nitty-gritty of actually developing with zope is no less a PITA and vertical learning 'curve' than anything else I've seen. Different, yes; easier, well, not for me anyhow. Though I haven't bothered with anything else since then, either... :-o So I stick with it because - conceptually - it's just way, way cooler than anything else. Meanwhile - in reality - I spend hours just trying to find out the right little bit of syntax or correct way to reference or method or hack or whatever to get one little tiny thing done. And so on, and so on... John S. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
John Schinnerer wrote:
So I stick with it because - conceptually - it's just way, way cooler than anything else. Meanwhile - in reality - I spend hours just trying to find out the right little bit of syntax or correct way to reference or method or hack or whatever to get one little tiny thing done. And so on, and so on...
The Kuro5hin comments are right on the mark. It's a big system. Extremely difficult to learn. *Extremely* frustrating. I have myself been so frustrated with it, on the verge of quitting development in it, so many times. Although that was only in the first year. Then when I thought that I finally mastered it, along came CMF/Plone. Which was allmost as difficult as Zope itself. At first I said to myself. This sucks. It's big and it's unruly. I'll goddam write something myself that's simpler and more logical. The funny thing was, that as I developed my own system, it came to look more and more like CMF/Plone, in how things where done. So I gave up and switched to CMF/Plone. But this time around I had a much easier time understanding CMF/Plone as I had allready written something very similar. But all in all the payoff of using Zope/Plone has been imense. Now it is so easy to develop new functionality that I dread working in other systems. Once you get a grasp of Zope, it really does deliver on it's promise. Flexible and powerfull. I now know Zope/Plone inside out by now, and am able to quickly find my answers in the source, because I know where to look. Developing a new product/content type takes me between half a day and a week. Depending on the complexity. A week is for something like a big discussion forum. But I must say that I am really looking forward to Zope 3. It should remove the frustrating experiences I have had getting to where I am now. It doesn't matter much for me personally, as I am able to do what I want by now. But a bigger Zope comunity, where new developers are able to contribute much more easily will be a *really* big advantage. And all the cool concepts in Zope implmemented in a much more "Pythonc" way. Can hardly wait. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science
I arrived to Zope looking for its portal framework, at that moment called PTK. It happened to be exactly the kind of tool I needed, a cool framework to build different portal typologies on top of, instead of building them all from scratch. So if I was to use it I needed to learn Zope, no matter how steep the curve could be. That was more than three years ago. In the meantime LAMP has almost become the lingua franca for open source based web developers, and every day a new PHP application hits the streets in search of its community approval. It's difficult to resist the temptation of testing them, above all because some of its members have put them all in this fancy site opensourcecms.com Out there the niche for an OS portal-ready-to-wear is already filled by them, let's face it. I'm particularly impressed by the fine true end-user experience that the latest Mambo provides, as much as I'm tired of all those php-nukes aimed to populate the same portal style for everybody, even for "look-ma-my-portal" kids. Zope is a different beast. It's an extremely powerful one. I'm glad when I know a former PHP coder becomes almost a Zope evangelist, that I really hope we could have the chance to show off what we can do with all that horsepower. IMHO up to this moment, Zope doesn't have a killer application other than CMF. Ausum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Bengtsson" <mail@peterbe.com> To: "Fred Yankowski" <fred@ontosys.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope article at Kuro5hin.org
From the introduction: "Recently I discovered Zope, and having understood its principles I decided to abandon my years of PHP experience in pursuit of a better way."
I, like him, had this experience too. How many people on the zope mailing list haven't had the same career experience?
Fred Yankowski wrote:
Someone has written a positive review of Zope over at Kuro5hin.org:
<http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/21/184222/896>
The responses so far tend to be from people who tried Zope and found it too confusing, big, and/or slow.
-- Peter Bengtsson, http://www.peterbe.com
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Fred Yankowski wrote:
Someone has written a positive review of Zope over at Kuro5hin.org:
<http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/21/184222/896>
The responses so far tend to be from people who tried Zope and found it too confusing, big, and/or slow.
Great to see kuro5hin going the way of slashdot ;-) And it's sad to see that only muppets with an axe to grind have time to reply... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
The article is interesting, the comments are more interesting. Seems like the hard learning curb to climb for Zope still is turning away people who would otherwise use Zope. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Fred Yankowski said:
Someone has written a positive review of Zope over at Kuro5hin.org:
<http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/21/184222/896>
The responses so far tend to be from people who tried Zope and found it too confusing, big, and/or slow.
-- Fred Yankowski fred@ontosys.com tel: +1.630.879.1312 OntoSys, Inc PGP keyID: 7B449345 fax: +1.630.879.1370 www.ontosys.com 38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510-9461, USA
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
participants (9)
-
Ausum Studio -
Chris Withers -
Fred Yankowski -
Jake -
John Schinnerer -
Lennart Regebro -
Max M -
Peter Bengtsson -
Tim Middleton