RE: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)
With practical experience on multi-person teams with tech people and design people with both DTML and ZPT, I can easily say this is just plain wrong. Document structure is best expressed and most portable in XML. There are less unknown factors in XML because the rules are clear. Coding XHTML (or even HTML) in ZPT scales better because there is less magic, and a clearer separation between code and design. I know you can do almost as well in well-written DTML, but this leads to problems in the real world (read: hacks that mess with this separation). Also, ZPT can do non-HTML non-XML content fine, you just need to be careful about whitespace if that matters (as you do in dtml). See Chris W's argument here. It's damn awful to try and have a designer/interface-developer try to redesign a site that has interface code built in DTML. It's especially awful if you are the person that has to give them tech support and pray they do not break the code by changing the presentation. DTML just doesn't scale to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not 'programming.' Sean -----Original Message----- From: Terry Hancock [mailto:hancock@anansispaceworks.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:07 PM To: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-) On Monday 17 February 2003 09:01 am, Chris Withers wrote:
Kevin Carlson wrote:
Come on folks. There's nothing wrong with supporting two templating languages. Quite honestly, dtml is much easier to learn for most and has it's place in application development
DTML has worked pretty much flawlessly for me. I have *NEVER* encountered any of the bugaboos about obfuscation or excessive code in it that have been claimed to be its faults. I use it in an admittedly complex presentation layer, and it provides excellent support for everything I need to do there. Python does the heavy lifting just fine, and I see no reason to change this part of my design.
...not unless some of its major current flaws are corrected. I think this is possible but I don't see the point of having two templating languages for one app server especially as we're now getting to the stage where you need to know _both_ before you can do anything useful with Zope :-(
Okay, I'm game, let's give ZPT the boot. It's a much more specialized language (HTML documents *only*), looks *really* obfuscated. Stuffs all its code into HTML attributes which is great for hiding the code away, but awful if you want to see the document structure. DTML and Python work fine together, and are capable of handling the whole range of tasks I need. ZPT+Python cannot. So ZPT is neither necessary nor sufficient. Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 14:41, sean.upton@uniontrib.com wrote:
DTML just doesn't scale to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not 'programming.'
Sean
Being exactly what you are referring to, ie: someone who knows html, but not programming, I have to disagree. I tried Zope initially BECAUSE of it's tag based scripting language. I found it very easy to learn, and granted, I have encountered some syntax issues that were a problem for a while, but searching on zope.org and asking for direction from list members, everything has worked out just fine. I constructed 26 virtual sites with Zope and DTML. I have also looked at ZPT and found it rather confusing. I guess maybe it's just the way I'm wired or how I process information, in any case, since we're not all the same, I feel that continuing to offer both solutions would be the most appropriate course. I have never experienced any thing weird in using DTML except for using a dtml-in inside sendmail. Thanks to Dylan, that was easily fixed in a couple of minutes. Michael
-----Original Message----- From: Terry Hancock [mailto:hancock@anansispaceworks.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:07 PM To: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)
On Monday 17 February 2003 09:01 am, Chris Withers wrote:
Kevin Carlson wrote:
Come on folks. There's nothing wrong with supporting two templating languages. Quite honestly, dtml is much easier to learn for most and has it's place in application development
DTML has worked pretty much flawlessly for me. I have *NEVER* encountered any of the bugaboos about obfuscation or excessive code in it that have been claimed to be its faults. I use it in an admittedly complex presentation layer, and it provides excellent support for everything I need to do there. Python does the heavy lifting just fine, and I see no reason to change this part of my design.
...not unless some of its major current flaws are corrected. I think this is possible but I don't see the point of having two templating languages for one app server especially as we're now getting to the stage where you need to know _both_ before you can do anything useful with Zope :-(
Okay, I'm game, let's give ZPT the boot. It's a much more specialized language (HTML documents *only*), looks *really* obfuscated. Stuffs all its code into HTML attributes which is great for hiding the code away, but awful
if you want to see the document structure. DTML and Python work fine together, and are capable of handling the whole range of tasks I need. ZPT+Python cannot.
So ZPT is neither necessary nor sufficient.
Terry
-- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com
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_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Michael Lewis <michael@nichestaffing.com> NicheStaffing.com
DTML just doesn't scale to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not 'programming.'
Being exactly what you are referring to, ie: someone who knows html, but not programming, I have to disagree. I tried Zope initially BECAUSE of it's tag based scripting language. I found it very easy to learn, and granted, I have encountered some syntax issues that were a problem for a while, but searching on zope.org and asking for direction from list members, everything has worked out just fine. I constructed 26 virtual sites with Zope and DTML. I have also looked at ZPT and found it rather confusing. I guess maybe it's just the way I'm wired or how I process information, in any case, since we're not all the same, I feel that continuing to offer both solutions would be the most appropriate course.
You're right: if you have good control over all the people working on your site (i.e. by yourself, with other of the Zope-savvy) either templating language can work fine. DTML, being straightforward, might even be easier (depending on if you've been trained to think XMLishly or not.) Note of course that Page Templates *look* a lot more obscure than they actually are. But throw in a couple designers with WYSIWYG editors and all hell's out for noon with DTML, so far as round-tripping your design is concerned. If that'll never happen, don't worry about it; if it might, or will, think very hard. And test the likely tools. There are people who think best in both DTML and ZPT modes, and I don't think it's a bad thing to have both lying around, so long as it is clear that "best practice" involves Page Templates (which I think it does), and the reasons for that are explained. --jcc
On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 16:37, J Cameron Cooper wrote:
DTML just doesn't scale to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not 'programming.'
Being exactly what you are referring to, ie: someone who knows html, but not programming, I have to disagree. I tried Zope initially BECAUSE of it's tag based scripting language. I found it very easy to learn, and granted, I have encountered some syntax issues that were a problem for a while, but searching on zope.org and asking for direction from list members, everything has worked out just fine. I constructed 26 virtual sites with Zope and DTML. I have also looked at ZPT and found it rather confusing. I guess maybe it's just the way I'm wired or how I process information, in any case, since we're not all the same, I feel that continuing to offer both solutions would be the most appropriate course.
You're right: if you have good control over all the people working on your site (i.e. by yourself, with other of the Zope-savvy) either templating language can work fine. DTML, being straightforward, might even be easier (depending on if you've been trained to think XMLishly or not.) Note of course that Page Templates *look* a lot more obscure than they actually are.
You may be right here. I don't have a lot of others working on this, except for my wife who does all of the content and she doesn't even know html. She has no problem though and it only took about 30 seconds to explain the dtml headers and footers for the paragraphs and page headers that appears in the objects containing her content.
But throw in a couple designers with WYSIWYG editors and all hell's out for noon with DTML, so far as round-tripping your design is concerned. If that'll never happen, don't worry about it; if it might, or will, think very hard. And test the likely tools.
This is something I've been wondering about. I've done all of the html/dtml with NEdit and have been trying out Quanta Gold. I also do all of my work on Linux. I don't know what a WYSIWYG editor looks like. Is this actually more of Windows vs Linux issue as Dreamweaver and most of these style editors are specific to Windows? I don't have any problems with either NEdit or Quanta Gold, both allow syntax highlighting for dtml.
There are people who think best in both DTML and ZPT modes, and I don't think it's a bad thing to have both lying around, so long as it is clear that "best practice" involves Page Templates (which I think it does), and the reasons for that are explained.
I really don't care which wins the title for "best practice" as long as I can continue to use dtml. I applaud your suggetion to "have both tools laying around." I think that is what all of us who prefer dtml have been saying since the start of this thread. Thanks. Michael
--jcc
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-- Michael Lewis <michael@nichestaffing.com> NicheStaffing.com
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sean.upton＠uniontrib.com