Hello ZOPE community, we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS. A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on. My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself. I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope? Best Sebastian
Am Mittwoch, 4. März 2015, 11:30:30 schrieb Sebastian Tänzer:
A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on. This is "stuff" typically spreaden by guys who don't know what Zope really is nor was and has (from my view) two reasons:
1.) The Zope project byself made very bad decisions within their communication strategy in the past - i.e. announcing a "Zope3" (for which many was waiting for) which did never come out and shoulnt be backward compatible to Zope2. 2.) Several PHP projects (like Typo3 and WP) are miscalled as "CMS" widely and (in the case of Typo3) from the maintainers byself. PHP is available on many low cost hosting packages available on the market (even if they are often to small for a Typo3 site with some more load then a few visitors by day on a few subpages. So in the view of many web agents and even "developers" anything apart from PHP is'nt existing or is something "excotically" and/or for enterprise level. We had often to deal with any kind of PHP problems in the past where customers decided to use any PHP "crap" for their business applications. Running PHP on a pro level is not "easier" then managing Zope installations. 3.) Zope documentation was partly very bad - at least when it comes to installation and system administration, updating etc.pp. ZMS had some similiar "problems" which held it back from a very wide presence - i.e. the long time not public available documentation and the hardly specialized focus onto medicine in the communication. just my two cents, Niels. -- --- Niels Dettenbach Syndicat IT & Internet http://www.syndicat.com PGP: https://syndicat.com/pub_key.asc ---
I do share some of the point of views, especially in regards to bad marketing about Zopes future versions and lack of documentation. I don't share the criticism on ZPT/TAL - actually I love Page Templates and the approach to templating it brought to the web world. Chameleon is one of my favourite templating engines around. Descriping Zope as mature is what I think fits best at the moment. Personally, I don't think Zope2 and a limited set of quite good Products is anywhere near dying - it's just not widely spread in the media but still I happen to come across many projects that work with the ZMS CMS for example where you don't expect it. My practical experience at least for the last 2-3 years was extremely positive about Zope2. We did not have any project where Zope2 was not able to do what was needed and do it well, too. Even some external coders were surprised about the flexiblity and extensibility. I'm not saying Zope2 and especially ZMS (which is our primary CMS products beeing used) fits every project, but we never ran into any trouble and weren't able to do the job. I did do some jobs with Pyramid and the development time and performance was (at least with our limited projects) about the same. Btw, we never really used neither the ZMI nor the TTWE functions really (close to never at all). For the last years we're working with our own Cocoa+python based MacOS app that uses WebDAV + FTP for local syncing and things like compass/sass integration. This is insanely fast despite the protocols (and thanks to local development setups and SSDs nowadays) and made us almost forget we're working inside the ZODB and not the local file system in the end. Using sockets we also sync down remote changes inside ZOPE locally almost instantly. It's a little bit like a FTP client on steriods ;-) Thank you all for your opinions and the open discussion. It's nice to hear about other people still using it in production despite its reputation ;-) Best Sebastian
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:56 AM, Sebastian Tänzer <st@taenzer.me> wrote:
Chameleon is one of my favourite templating engines around.
I like TAL and Chameleon's subtle improvements on it. I was recently attending a Python users group meeting presentation on Pyramid. The presenter, who strongly liked jinja2, disparaged ZPT/Chameleon with (what I sensed was) an "anti-Zopism" straw-man. Some folks in other Python dev communities tend to have unfortunate strong opinions about Zope, still. Some folks tend to think that technology choice is a cultural revolution of some kind where the incumbent must be strung up in a public square, which is off-putting to pragmatists. And IMHO, other communities are better off learning from Zope's hits and misses (past and present) than exhuming Oliver Cromwell for symbolic torture. I'm not sure that jinja2 and similar are really better for readability or separation of concerns versus TAL, and if some folks don't like TAL for DOM/XML/HTML-ish output, I'm left scratching my head why push templating like meld3 hasn't really taken off. My sense is that ZPT will continue to have its niche outside of Zope, but mostly confined to developers working in Pyramid development. Sean
I just ran into that a few days ago looking for documentation about the PUT_factory which has not been copied from the original documenation to the new one at http://docs.zope.org/zope2/. But: It still existed and took about 15 seconds to google it. Who's maintaining docs.zope.org/zope2 at the moment? I'd love to add partly missing stuff and complete stuff missing at all. Unfortunately these docs don't have a CMS behind. I already thought about porting them to a ZMS based site so editing and extending would be easier.
Am 04.03.2015 um 12:35 schrieb Niels Dettenbach <nd@syndicat.com>:
3.) Zope documentation was partly very bad - at least when it comes to installation and system administration, updating etc.pp.
Nice discussion! I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it sooner, just let me know. Best -Simon
Hi Simon I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information. Regards Bernard On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
Nice discussion!
I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it sooner, just let me know.
Best -Simon
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Hi Bernard, great! You'll hear more from me in the next couple of days. -Simon On 3/7/15 2:49 AM, Bernard Devlin wrote:
Hi Simon
I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.
Regards Bernard
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
Nice discussion!
I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it sooner, just let me know.
Best -Simon
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
I've sent you a download link. I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and wrote Zwiki), so please call on me for help as you need, on the mail list or directly. I’m sm in the #zope IRC channel. Thanks for working on it. -Simon On 3/7/15 7:17 AM, Simon Michael wrote:
Hi Bernard,
great! You'll hear more from me in the next couple of days.
-Simon
On 3/7/15 2:49 AM, Bernard Devlin wrote:
Hi Simon
I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.
Regards Bernard
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
Nice discussion!
I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it sooner, just let me know.
Best -Simon
Hello When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web development changed in the last couple of years and there are other options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a future Zope needs - A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING! - DOCUMENTATION! - Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI) - Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...) The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve. My 2 cents Tom On 07.03.15 16:30, Simon Michael wrote:
I've sent you a download link.
I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and wrote Zwiki), so please call on me for help as you need, on the mail list or directly. I’m sm in the #zope IRC channel. Thanks for working on it.
-Simon
On 3/7/15 7:17 AM, Simon Michael wrote:
Hi Bernard,
great! You'll hear more from me in the next couple of days.
-Simon
On 3/7/15 2:49 AM, Bernard Devlin wrote:
Hi Simon
I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.
Regards Bernard
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
Nice discussion!
I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it sooner, just let me know.
Best -Simon
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Author of the book "Plone 3 Multimedia" - http://amzn.to/dtrp0C Tom Gross email..........itconsense@gmail.com skype.....................tom_gross web.........http://toms-projekte.de blog...http://blog.toms-projekte.de
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Tom Gross wrote:
Hello
When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web development changed in the last couple of years and there are other options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a future Zope needs
- A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING!
Oh, we great a not that bad Zope 2 site once in the past. Outcome? Zero.
- DOCUMENTATION!
Oh, we created a not so bad docs.zope.org site. Outcome? Zero.
- Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)
Waste of time...
- Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)
Reasonable but too hard to achieve and it longer it takes the more pointless Zope will become.
The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve.
Beat me for my realistic sarcasm but Zope is a zombie. Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJU/TmsAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjfU4Lv0XWBjruYNV5SaVUg7t9XaAa DVk61rQFSIevA3pdREebu6YEJSAvq3kIy8XrbfNGmLkxWArvK5JWOh5tf3qqsfw4 W/6y4JGSBQf9KpvgvRhf8ip1vj0Ie45fFnC86dTKBbauIOjeOPC3ZoHFA+2dNVWr E/wd421xUxwo03EjGQgCA8HJk3q9S3CXqf55UbVb5K0jwdotG2nYuAXd1C7c3eDN IN4n1P6HTQj67B3BOlJlU4d8UtPg5rkazGvps8h6z9as1TXBu9qGUO/RDb14Ry7f 9gRFwbq0fq9yI62yK3GruatQXgYx5HW79l7MQu8DsTUAab1aHeuIrPxKUX8wahjO MORo8c9sptnvciVcS96cgkO8fBfofECiCdrJmqKPOWxcZOuZ8/uIeZvxJfchNGiH 3ltFY96WxL0RE6b9mTxWh7zXKkcBtJkKNmhzNgRd7YhqNdd9do3jdA+W9rZys7wD 5Q2LErAI9HIzPQ9SV//83+E2pa1b8GA= =mH4E -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Again, I'm not sure if it is worth the thing but when I talk about marketing I don't mean just having a website. Everyone has one these days. Why should anyone visit especially the Zope website? I mean going to the people and talk to them, blog, tweet, whatever ... In the medieval times they knew better. The king went to the market to promote important things and not in his castle ... The success story of Zope did not start because it was a good product but it was mentioned in New York Times and people demanded it. Sales seems to be a taboo word in most OpenSource communities but I think it is essential to keep software alive. -Tom On 09.03.15 07:11, Andreas Jung wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Tom Gross wrote:
Hello
When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web development changed in the last couple of years and there are other options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a future Zope needs
- A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING!
Oh, we great a not that bad Zope 2 site once in the past. Outcome? Zero.
- DOCUMENTATION!
Oh, we created a not so bad docs.zope.org site. Outcome? Zero.
- Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)
Waste of time...
- Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)
Reasonable but too hard to achieve and it longer it takes the more pointless Zope will become.
The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve.
Beat me for my realistic sarcasm but Zope is a zombie.
Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJU/TmsAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjfU4Lv0XWBjruYNV5SaVUg7t9XaAa DVk61rQFSIevA3pdREebu6YEJSAvq3kIy8XrbfNGmLkxWArvK5JWOh5tf3qqsfw4 W/6y4JGSBQf9KpvgvRhf8ip1vj0Ie45fFnC86dTKBbauIOjeOPC3ZoHFA+2dNVWr E/wd421xUxwo03EjGQgCA8HJk3q9S3CXqf55UbVb5K0jwdotG2nYuAXd1C7c3eDN IN4n1P6HTQj67B3BOlJlU4d8UtPg5rkazGvps8h6z9as1TXBu9qGUO/RDb14Ry7f 9gRFwbq0fq9yI62yK3GruatQXgYx5HW79l7MQu8DsTUAab1aHeuIrPxKUX8wahjO MORo8c9sptnvciVcS96cgkO8fBfofECiCdrJmqKPOWxcZOuZ8/uIeZvxJfchNGiH 3ltFY96WxL0RE6b9mTxWh7zXKkcBtJkKNmhzNgRd7YhqNdd9do3jdA+W9rZys7wD 5Q2LErAI9HIzPQ9SV//83+E2pa1b8GA= =mH4E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Author of the book "Plone 3 Multimedia" - http://amzn.to/dtrp0C Tom Gross email..........itconsense@gmail.com skype.....................tom_gross web.........http://toms-projekte.de blog...http://blog.toms-projekte.de
When I started with Zope I loved its Zope Book. It was a super simple amd well documented book with a lot of examples. Zope3 and all that came later does not have it in my opinion. I saw right now jinja2 and doesn't like. insert code between html code in that way remember me dtml. it was good in its time but ot any more. In resume: ZPT and zope2 are excellent tools for who knows use it. The zope 2 book was a great help. The help in Pascal and visual basic 6 were also good help with many and not-just-see-how-call-the-command examples to learn the language. my 2 cents. 2015-03-10 12:03 GMT-06:00 Tom Gross <itconsense@gmail.com>:
Again, I'm not sure if it is worth the thing but when I talk about marketing I don't mean just having a website. Everyone has one these days. Why should anyone visit especially the Zope website? I mean going to the people and talk to them, blog, tweet, whatever ... In the medieval times they knew better. The king went to the market to promote important things and not in his castle ... The success story of Zope did not start because it was a good product but it was mentioned in New York Times and people demanded it. Sales seems to be a taboo word in most OpenSource communities but I think it is essential to keep software alive.
-Tom
On 09.03.15 07:11, Andreas Jung wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Tom Gross wrote:
Hello
When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web development changed in the last couple of years and there are other options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a future Zope needs
- A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING!
Oh, we great a not that bad Zope 2 site once in the past. Outcome? Zero.
- DOCUMENTATION!
Oh, we created a not so bad docs.zope.org site. Outcome? Zero.
- Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)
Waste of time...
- Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)
Reasonable but too hard to achieve and it longer it takes the more pointless Zope will become.
The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve.
Beat me for my realistic sarcasm but Zope is a zombie.
Andreas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJU/TmsAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjfU4Lv0XWBjruYNV5SaVUg7t9XaAa DVk61rQFSIevA3pdREebu6YEJSAvq3kIy8XrbfNGmLkxWArvK5JWOh5tf3qqsfw4 W/6y4JGSBQf9KpvgvRhf8ip1vj0Ie45fFnC86dTKBbauIOjeOPC3ZoHFA+2dNVWr E/wd421xUxwo03EjGQgCA8HJk3q9S3CXqf55UbVb5K0jwdotG2nYuAXd1C7c3eDN IN4n1P6HTQj67B3BOlJlU4d8UtPg5rkazGvps8h6z9as1TXBu9qGUO/RDb14Ry7f 9gRFwbq0fq9yI62yK3GruatQXgYx5HW79l7MQu8DsTUAab1aHeuIrPxKUX8wahjO MORo8c9sptnvciVcS96cgkO8fBfofECiCdrJmqKPOWxcZOuZ8/uIeZvxJfchNGiH 3ltFY96WxL0RE6b9mTxWh7zXKkcBtJkKNmhzNgRd7YhqNdd9do3jdA+W9rZys7wD 5Q2LErAI9HIzPQ9SV//83+E2pa1b8GA= =mH4E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Author of the book "Plone 3 Multimedia" - http://amzn.to/dtrp0C
Tom Gross email..........itconsense@gmail.com skype.....................tom_gross web.........http://toms-projekte.de blog...http://blog.toms-projekte.de
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- ________________________________________ Lo bueno de vivir un dia mas es saber que nos queda un dia menos de vida
On 07/03/15 16:30, Simon Michael wrote:
I've sent you a download link.
I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and wrote Zwiki)
ZWIKI... God... Is there any possibility of upgrading it to support current Zope2?. I have currently two zope instances: a current zope and an aging Zope 2.10 just to host ZWIKI :(. About current topic: I am not a web developer. I host my (heavy) personal ZOPE webserver and a handful of WSGI handcoded services. But my Zope webserver is working well and I am happy with it. Every now and then I have to write new logic and I must decide to "invest" into Zope o just bite the bullet and jump to Django, Piramid, whatever. I am keeping Zope because I am using it since 1998 and I know it inside-out. I can do whatever I want with it and the HUGE learning curve is already amortized. I just consider other choices because I feel that Zope 2 is a dead-end, not because I am unhappy with it. But Zope wins every time so far :) That said, documentation is really painful. It is very fragmented and it is not easy to separate "outdated" from "current". Messy. Since current codebase seems to change really slowly (mature!) I would love to see a documentation effort. Not holding my breath :-(. Most of the time, when implementing something new, I don't have any other choice than dive into the Zope sourcecode. Doable but time-wasting. -- Jesús Cea Avión _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ jcea@jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ Twitter: @jcea _/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ jabber / xmpp:jcea@jabber.org _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ "Things are not so easy" _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ "My name is Dump, Core Dump" _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ "El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz
I just had to port an Intranet to modern hardware/Linux that has been created in 1996 using plain zope and has been "programmatically" untouched since 2001. The Intranet is rather complex and provides a kind of ERP on very technical data. The application consist of some 1000 little dtml scripts and is totaly unmaintainable. But it runs and runs and runs and is heavily used.. Unhindered by the fact that the inner working of the Intranet is unfathomable the transition to an up to date virtualized linux, actual postgres and such went rather easily. Zope might be a zombie, but it is a great and sturdy one .. hats of to its creators.. robert On 17.03.2015 02:37, Jesus Cea wrote:
On 07/03/15 16:30, Simon Michael wrote:
I've sent you a download link.
I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and wrote Zwiki) ZWIKI... God...
Is there any possibility of upgrading it to support current Zope2?. I have currently two zope instances: a current zope and an aging Zope 2.10 just to host ZWIKI :(.
About current topic: I am not a web developer. I host my (heavy) personal ZOPE webserver and a handful of WSGI handcoded services. But my Zope webserver is working well and I am happy with it. Every now and then I have to write new logic and I must decide to "invest" into Zope o just bite the bullet and jump to Django, Piramid, whatever.
I am keeping Zope because I am using it since 1998 and I know it inside-out. I can do whatever I want with it and the HUGE learning curve is already amortized. I just consider other choices because I feel that Zope 2 is a dead-end, not because I am unhappy with it. But Zope wins every time so far :)
That said, documentation is really painful. It is very fragmented and it is not easy to separate "outdated" from "current". Messy. Since current codebase seems to change really slowly (mature!) I would love to see a documentation effort. Not holding my breath :-(. Most of the time, when implementing something new, I don't have any other choice than dive into the Zope sourcecode. Doable but time-wasting.
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On 3/16/15 6:37 PM, Jesus Cea wrote:
ZWIKI... God...
Is there any possibility of upgrading it to support current Zope2?. I have currently two zope instances: a current zope and an aging Zope 2.10 just to host ZWIKI :(.
Hi Jesus, as far as I know it works out of the box with Zope 2.13, at least 2.13.5. What and where is current Zope2 ? Feel free to open an issue (or pull request). The old issue tracker was read-only so I've activated a new one at github (see https://github.com/simonmichael/ZWiki/issues/2). Best -Simon
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/17/2015 03:01 PM, Simon Michael wrote:
What and where is current Zope2 ?
- ----------------------- %< -------------------------- $ /opt/Python-2.7.9/bin/virtualenv /tmp/zwiki New python executable in /tmp/zwiki/bin/python Installing setuptools, pip...done. $ /tmp/zwiki/bin/easy_install -i http://download.zope.org/Zope2/index/2.13.22/ Zope2 Searching for Zope2 Reading http://download.zope.org/Zope2/index/2.13.22/Zope2/ Best match: Zope2 2.13.22 Downloading https://pypi.python.org/packages/source/Z/Zope2/Zope2-2.13.22.zip Processing Zope2-2.13.22.zip Writing /tmp/easy_install-TDMWMj/Zope2-2.13.22/setup.cfg Running Zope2-2.13.22/setup.py -q bdist_egg --dist-dir /tmp/easy_install-TDMWMj/Zope2-2.13.22/egg-dist-tmp-RMdvZU warning: no previously-included files matching '*.dll' found anywhere in distribution warning: no previously-included files matching '*.pyc' found anywhere in distribution warning: no previously-included files matching '*.pyo' found anywhere in distribution warning: no previously-included files matching '*.so' found anywhere in distribution creating /tmp/zwiki/lib/python2.7/site-packages/Zope2-2.13.22-py2.7.egg Extracting Zope2-2.13.22-py2.7.egg to /tmp/zwiki/lib/python2.7/site-packages Adding Zope2 2.13.22 to easy-install.pth file Installing runzope script to /tmp/zwiki/bin Installing zopectl script to /tmp/zwiki/bin Installing zpasswd script to /tmp/zwiki/bin Installing addzope2user script to /tmp/zwiki/bin Installing mkzopeinstance script to /tmp/zwiki/bin ... Finished processing dependencies for Zope2 - ----------------------- %< -------------------------- I can install ZWiki into an 'INSTANCE_HOME/Products' directory: - ----------------------- %< -------------------------- $ /tmp/zwiki/bin/mkzopeinstance -d /tmp/zwiki-instance Please choose a username and password for the initial user. These will be the credentials you use to initially manage your new Zope instance. Username: zope Password: Verify password: $ cd /tmp/zwiki-instance/Products/ $ git clone https://github.com/simonmichael/ZWiki.git Cloning into 'ZWiki'... remote: Counting objects: 10939, done. remote: Total 10939 (delta 0), reused 0 (delta 0), pack-reused 10939 Receiving objects: 100% (10939/10939), 22.94 MiB | 1.60 MiB/s, done. Resolving deltas: 100% (6526/6526), done. $ cd .. $ bin/zopectl fg 2015-03-17 22:12:15 INFO ZServer HTTP server started at Tue Mar 17 22:12:15 2015 Hostname: 0.0.0.0 Port: 8080 2015-03-17 22:12:16 INFO Zope Ready to handle requests - ----------------------- %< -------------------------- But when I try to add a ZWiki in the ZMI: - ----------------------- %< -------------------------- 2015-03-17 22:12:32 ERROR Zope.SiteErrorLog 1426644752.520.65415236047 http://localhost:8080/manage_addProduct/ZWiki/addwikiform Traceback (innermost last): Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 138, in publish Module ZPublisher.mapply, line 77, in mapply Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 48, in call_object Module Shared.DC.Scripts.Bindings, line 322, in __call__ Module Shared.DC.Scripts.Bindings, line 359, in _bindAndExec Module App.special_dtml, line 185, in _exec Module DocumentTemplate.DT_In, line 627, in renderwob Module Products.ZWiki, line 430, in listWikis Module Products.ZWiki, line 439, in listZodbWikis AttributeError: ZWiki - ----------------------- %< -------------------------- Reported at: https://github.com/simonmichael/ZWiki/issues/3 Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVCOBcAAoJEPKpaDSJE9HYuM8P/ReMw7eBdWAwJAgylhS+BIJK 7bOfA0tmZpijaRuGNKqq4+EXEVn8zIZZVQC5MpWbpXLYG96S4dl0ajQCZYwSabLe m4M7FNH22Sktf6zS+yCl1boUXIYhalEe+rZcr1tnpXxs9Iw0APh6x/RNkbn4WMaC T4SGFtLpLjR4rzsFqfdJncLL7apv0VWeYs6yNKphZjd+7/2hSBKQw04G9uMro8Wg 9ZN6imos+YcAG8AgRL5Y23DqUou0wokrOp3H8WpTVajLffoG2henfpCOgDRwPpWM s8Y5sBE9FBE44GN5hPR60r4uSTrzmwaPaW+7gN7soOVs7o6860V0VGjXljUWq7Ov rh+5ybMlJtv1vGPf4iV4FChIe+OgcrfO/6WI14RW+xM1oFGNEC3rNwMaZFyFyfU5 g/35W4XVIzAHXu9vXTlCZXedhQx2VNfgUjURPdz/gmO8i4+F79FvlmhAShZFZb6d rsiUIo/Y/WX9Xdv458V45rE/BfCJl12xXcd/ht77HkLdWnK3n1CIABPnFx6wfz/5 XMlphI31uC0zqjpMihty0BY+AUnibqHnjHCSAdHZpo3+Xlw05UJekMY64SLiphWX mqQX9Imi/GHptc/2knGgxgfIrsuIc1AwZQSFZnYV7id3KkngS/3JEwudE7o4Ayer ZXCiV4YE+5CHeeS5NDJp =pPNr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
That's a good question: I'm not a Zope developer but I've been hosting several Plone sites (including my own) for about 5 years now; and I am *extremely* happy with the stability and security Zope+Plone offers. Despite a couple of attempts by me, I never could start developing with Zope. For me, as I have a solid Java background, the complexity was, as you can clearly see why, not a problem :-) The main stopper for me was that there were hardly any documents out there! They were mostly either old or incomplete or didn't exist at all. PS: Please correct if things have changed...the last time I tried Zope development was more than 2 years ago. -- Bahman Movaqar http://BahmanM.com - https://twitter.com/bahman__m https://github.com/bahmanm - https://gist.github.com/bahmanm PGP Key ID: 0x6AB5BD68 (keyserver2.pgp.com) On 03/04/2015 02:00 PM, Sebastian Tänzer wrote:
Hello ZOPE community,
we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
Best Sebastian _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Hi, I'm currently maintaining applications using Zope2, Zope3/Bluebream and Pyramid applications (using ZODB). I don't have any problem on any of them, even on the oldest Zope2 applications which are more than 10 years old but always need zero maintenance and are as stable as mountains. But I have to say that Zope2 looks quite old now, and TTW development for example have (from my own point of view) many drawbacks. So for my own needs I wouldn't start a new project using Zope2 but would use Pyramid + ZODB which is a really good stack; Pyramid is well documented and really pleasant to use, and you can reuse many principles that were introduced by Zope, but the framework was cleaned and reduced to the really usefull parts (while many optional ones are available as add-ons packages). Regards, Thierry ________________________________________ De : Zope <zope-bounces@zope.org> de la part de Sebastian Tänzer <st@taenzer.me> Envoyé : mercredi 4 mars 2015 11:30 À : zope@zope.org Objet : [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra Hello ZOPE community, we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS. A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on. My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself. I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope? Best Sebastian _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Hello Sebastian, I guess the main problem is the future maintenance of Zope. For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem. Eric On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Sebastian Tänzer <st@taenzer.me> wrote:
Hello ZOPE community,
we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
Best Sebastian _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Am Mittwoch, 4. März 2015, 13:42:13 schrieb Eric Bréhault:
For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem. This is just another such story which leads to non-interest of Users into Zope and let me compare to Perl5, where many peoples was looking forward to Perl6 which was targeted to publish somewhere 15 years ago and perl5 is still available and maintained today.
Where a demand is - there is a solution and Zope2 / 4 is not the only larger project still demand on python 2 and btw: afaik at least a part of the components / modules "used" in (or "provided by") the "Zope" project today are still ported / running under python3. just my two cents, Niels. -- --- Niels Dettenbach Syndicat IT & Internet http://www.syndicat.com PGP: https://syndicat.com/pub_key.asc ---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Eric Bréhault wrote:
Hello Sebastian,
I guess the main problem is the future maintenance of Zope. For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem.
The Zope development is almost dead and there only a few people keeping it alive in terms of security maintenance etc. It would be unhonest to compare Zope technology with a zombie but Zope was great technology, mistakes had been made and all technology turns at some point into legacy mode. Some part of the ZCA are still great and while other parts of the ZCA should be considered as an architectural software fail. The ZODB is still great and must not hide behind so-called "NOSQL" technology - the ZODB as NOSQL ten years ago and it still superb in some way. Personally I don't see Zope on Python 3 happen at any time soon, I don't see Plone X running on Python 3 at any time soon..it's all legacy and we have to live with that. For new projects it is time to move on and learn from the good and parts of the Zope world in order to create something better. Cheers - -aj -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJU9zXtAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjqtYLvR4GJAmEGbV7Zq2wkvKIfQf8 WXVZPOUDRHzj0m/K8/Af4zxNA72bjQ5Dn+haIP+1qwyRSFxT1HcACyxf3huIF8wO newUgiSYf6GfIvvw1o5P4F0CDDuOEgUwPyB8sNsJyecnmTjo0rlSXtFbzEPrArwo UDlcsf+KGDJLvRFAIny/NzMP7ZCWWw17onAO4i6oGYMwhRcrU2ZGJBN1zZCBs8Ry YUsbprS5ydDBQOceMgxdAyVNTkiQNOPgTg3NEhp38IOuWmNqWYQAgKByysJdkKqf LLc4D7a4Y19KqoMljcnXU1LF0hl4m/vAIQxubSWWR/sukjv2YYj2O3JRnm79+m2H YY5fYswFFkQ7rrD3N6pqcLDt9T96V1KFWR9Y34C+mdHXnpfyWVDKymgZ6F39t6s+ 5cIvg8/B7VNddZfzZnHWT3wwFFdiQl8KTGG4Sorpoz/zwFRBpL/A+3BK+8zijOWO upkjWRxOkN4pLoo4POAtuVJ/hp8P0vM= =44Wi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Zope2 is not dead, it is mature product. I use it, I love it. Comunity is real small just now, because all what are discoverable, is discovered. Zope 2 download site is practically dead for many years, so more than 90% of products are not avaiable. This is the biggest problem because these products was very valuable, but now are in the limbus. There are no new products for Zope2 because comunity was ran to Zope3, which is impractical. The first big mistake is giving too much propagation to the ZPT/TAL technology which is absolutelly not good for the zope masses. The second big mistake is run out to the Zope3, which is totally different in the idea and many peoples are gone away to the Java, PHP etc. Regards, JL. ----- Puvodní zpráva ----- Od: "Sebastian Tänzer" <st@taenzer.me>
we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 If it is not dead then call it a zombie...you know what I mean :) - -aj Jaroslav Lukesh wrote:
Zope2 is not dead, it is mature product. I use it, I love it.
Comunity is real small just now, because all what are discoverable, is discovered.
Zope 2 download site is practically dead for many years, so more than 90% of products are not avaiable. This is the biggest problem because these products was very valuable, but now are in the limbus.
There are no new products for Zope2 because comunity was ran to Zope3, which is impractical.
The first big mistake is giving too much propagation to the ZPT/TAL technology which is absolutelly not good for the zope masses. The second big mistake is run out to the Zope3, which is totally different in the idea and many peoples are gone away to the Java, PHP etc.
Regards, JL.
----- Puvodní zpráva ----- Od: "Sebastian Tänzer" <st@taenzer.me>
we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
- -- Regards Andreas Jung andreas@andreas-jung.com about.me/andreasjung -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJU+XE1AAoJEADcfz7u4AZj9bkLv2Ltr9Oj8Pq/GJqdGyc3wwIH Sczno305EKAY2f7/YZFk9WFORFxcZlZYZPAWX9I5TgEN4GG5URFpQbxopxxrH3FD LchjbEBoAm3Ol2hebIlbwXBUBoEkQjSO1SogQM/982SYY+MrxkbQXuP82stycKRX //vqOBo5P0TwSV9Vp0QaX48x4zyu2cyHcD/UEnJpv/AqjAqXYzodd4Y6IdNrovCZ +ZL2wSo0asITZmhmSuhdqZHGotrABlFhFs82jOpbYL0N9chWlgTdjOnIL3qr1jO6 diqQFqtp+fwFOHrROzz/JjnzKogCAMeWUibnbJ/5pZnQsMZnNBimqcBGuRWQfys5 shff+keeldIvJ5XzmMXaZenhhVhVOuL1v7bnaqGLX3IRdfI1vG9Y3jusLTQET3Zr TziHKsOEVQGxBfhmQOEWjWO+0KxQ8AX+WgWyJHQFgEWJX1AfVMOCtQZLrjAW10bW fvvWGkVRp+AfmSJdyCkbvCro3TxPRiU= =ncgp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (16)
-
Andreas Jung -
Bahman Movaqar -
Bernard Devlin -
Eric Bréhault -
FLORAC Thierry -
Jaroslav Lukesh -
Jesus Cea -
Jürgen Gmach -
Miguel Beltran R. -
Niels Dettenbach -
robert rottermann -
Sean Upton -
Sebastian Tänzer -
Simon Michael -
Tom Gross -
Tres Seaver