I wasn't going to respond to this, but I can't resist. Comments inline below. -- Michael Fraase ARTS & FARCES LLC mfraase@farces.com www.farces.com PGP Fingerprint: 3D85 F3F4 9E65 4949 176A 260C CB47 190D C864 9A96
-----Original Message-----
This discussion is so pointless...
Pointless to whom? I'm learning a good bit.
FYI Google has upwards of 10.000 (thats TEN THOUSAND) linux machines serving as frontends for their service. And although Google's pages are dynamic, they're basically the same script run over and over again with little or no images. So caching is not the only option; its just that I'm sure you dont have Google's
budget.
What you're trying to do is asking Zope to DYNAMICALLY generate Squishdot pages (probably full of database accesses and images). But you're doing this on a PC (no hardware specs were specified) running Windows (!) and on a DSL line.
Hardware specs were most certainly provided (P3 850MHz 768MB RAM). I hate to be put in the position of defending Microsoft, but the OS didn't fall over. Neither did my DSL connection. Zope did. As of about 8:00 PM CST today my site has served more than 120,000 pageviews. Not bad, and it's settled down now, but I was having to restart Zope every hour or so for most of the day.
If you try to do something similar with ANY OTHER platform (lets say Apache+PHP+PHPNuke; or IIS+ASP+some forum software or other) you're also going to get into the same kind of problems.
Agreed. But I'm not sure the other options would fall over.
If you compound this with the fact that you're also clueless (e.g
running
Zope without knowing what -S is for; or, for that matter, running any
software without knowing what you're doing), you're in for a lot of trouble. Please, dont answer "I'm a writer, not a programmer". THAT is precisely your problem. You want to be able to build rockets without taking a course in rocket science. Dont misunderstand me; you can still fire rockets or build amateur rockets; just dont try to reach the moon.
First of all, I never claimed to be cluefull. That's why I came here and asked the question. But neither am I clueless. The -S switch has been bothering me for a while. Do a search on zope.org for "command line switches" nothing. Nothing in any of the Zope documentation that I can find. Nor in any of the three Zope books currently in print. Even the Windows-specific doc doesn't say anything about the -S switch. Being a writer/information architect isn't my problem. Nor is it relevant to this issue. Get used to it; we're here and we need your help. But you need our help just as much. And to use your metaphor, I have no interest in building rockets, only flying them. Better get used to that too; there are a lot more of us than there are of you.
Here are some tips:
- enable caching on Zope
Done and already cited.
- change from Windows to Linux
Maybe, but again, Windows didn't fall over--Zope did.
- install more RAM on your PC
768Mb is the maximum I can install in what I've got. Should be adequate. There's no evidence of not having enough memory caused Zope to fail.
- get more CPU for your PC
Again, there's no evidence that lack of CPU horsepower caused Zope to fail.
- put Squid in front of your Zope
Excellent advice for Linux users.
- fine tune your Zope to use only the necessary command line switches
So what's -S for? As stated in a previous message the only other switches I'm using set the web port and the WebDAV port.
- pack your Zope database frequently
I do. At least weekly, sometimes daily, today it was every few hours.
- stop all the other software that you might have running (i.e. dedicated server)
Zope's all that's really running.
- create static versions of the most accessed page(s)
That's a good idea.
- you might have a memory leak somewhere; plug it
We're running a consumer portal with about 1 million hits per day using 2 frontends (regular PC machines) connected to 1 backend (server PC).
C U!
-- Mario Valente
On Wednesday 21 November 2001 14:20, Michael Fraase wrote:
- fine tune your Zope to use only the necessary command line
switches
So what's -S for? As stated in a previous message the only other switches I'm using set the web port and the WebDAV port.
Just FYI, it's used by the windows service so the z2 script doesn't fork off a management process. That process is used by Zope on unix-alikes to restart the server if it dies. On windows, I believe you would use the standard windows service restart mechanisms. I have almost no experience with that though, sorry. Richard
- enable caching on Zope
Done and already cited.
According to the symptoms you describe and your description of the caching setup, you still probably need to cache more. It really is the answer to this problem. If you're not caching all the pages that are getting slammed, your caching setup is not really useful.
- put Squid in front of your Zope
Excellent advice for Linux users.
Squid also runs on Windows 2000. See http://www.serassio.it/SquidNT.htm.
- create static versions of the most accessed page(s)
That's a good idea.
Note that this is all that caching is, except non-automatic. Cheers, - C
Thanks for the heads-up on squid. I thought it was Linux-only. -- Michael Fraase ARTS & FARCES LLC mfraase@farces.com www.farces.com PGP Fingerprint: 3D85 F3F4 9E65 4949 176A 260C CB47 190D C864 9A96
-----Original Message----- From: Chris McDonough [mailto:chrism@zope.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:03 PM To: mfraase@farces.com; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] RE: Caching...
- enable caching on Zope
Done and already cited.
According to the symptoms you describe and your description of the caching setup, you still probably need to cache more. It really is the answer to this problem. If you're not caching all the pages that are getting slammed, your caching setup is not really useful.
- put Squid in front of your Zope
Excellent advice for Linux users.
Squid also runs on Windows 2000. See http://www.serassio.it/SquidNT.htm.
- create static versions of the most accessed page(s)
That's a good idea.
Note that this is all that caching is, except non-automatic.
Cheers,
- C
Chris McDonough writes:
- enable caching on Zope
Done and already cited.
According to the symptoms you describe and your description of the caching setup, you still probably need to cache more. It really is the answer to this problem. If you're not caching all the pages that are getting slammed, your caching setup is not really useful. Caching too less is no reason for Zope to crash, is it?
Thus, there must be something else at the problem's base. Do you see strange memory consumption? Do you get any error indication (protection violation or something like that)? Dieter
Dieter Maurer wrote:
Caching too less is no reason for Zope to crash, is it?
Thus, there must be something else at the problem's base.
OTOH, he hasn't reported any sort of odd behavior at low load. Actually, the site reportedly stopped acting abnormally when load went down. So to solve his immediate problem *today*, he should just cache. Period. If he cares enough to actually troubleshoot the problem at its base tomorrow and the next days, then we're all very lucky and I'll help as much as possible. -- Chris McDonough Zope Corporation http://www.zope.org http://www.zope.com "Killing hundreds of birds with thousands of stones"
I'm still waiting for it to fall over since I added the -M switch to the start parameter. It hasn't and the load has subsided considerably, so I doubt it will fall over again. When it was falling over as quickly as I could restart it, there were no error messages, didn't appear to be any memory problems, nothing. Zope just quit and requests to port 80 were refused. I really wish I could be more help. I do care about troubleshooting the problem, but I think I missed the heavy load window. Sorry. -- Michael Fraase ARTS & FARCES LLC mfraase@farces.com www.farces.com PGP Fingerprint: 3D85 F3F4 9E65 4949 176A 260C CB47 190D C864 9A96
-----Original Message----- From: Chris McDonough [mailto:chrism@digicool.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 6:29 PM To: Dieter Maurer Cc: Chris McDonough; mfraase@farces.com; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] RE: Caching...
Dieter Maurer wrote:
Caching too less is no reason for Zope to crash, is it?
Thus, there must be something else at the problem's base.
OTOH, he hasn't reported any sort of odd behavior at low load. Actually, the site reportedly stopped acting abnormally when load went down.
So to solve his immediate problem *today*, he should just cache. Period.
If he cares enough to actually troubleshoot the problem at its base tomorrow and the next days, then we're all very lucky and I'll help as much as possible.
-- Chris McDonough Zope Corporation http://www.zope.org http://www.zope.com "Killing hundreds of birds with thousands of stones"
At 21:20 20-11-2001 -0600, Michael Fraase wrote:
- change from Windows to Linux
Maybe, but again, Windows didn't fall over--Zope did.
I hate to be put in the position of defending Microsoft, but the OS didn't fall over. Neither did my DSL connection. Zope did.
"No judge sir, I'm sorry, I'm not guilty of killing that guy. My gun did. I was just holding it". Nice excuse. So Windows has shitty memory management, stupid or inexistent threads. Zope depends on both to run nicely. Zope crashes because it requests heavy kung fu from the OS and the OS is unable to handle it and simply replies "get a life". And you're defending the OS ? :-) Hey, you're the one with the problem :-) We also had our consumer portal running on Windows NT machines (remember, we have upwards of 1 million hits per day) and were rebooting the machines daily. Guess what happened when we changed to Linux, with no changes in the code ? Yep, we normally have at least 1 week of Zope uptime, getting to 2 weeks at times.
- put Squid in front of your Zope
Excellent advice for Linux users.
No. Like someone already said, you have Squid for windows too. C U! -- Mario Valente
participants (7)
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Chris McDonough -
Chris McDonough -
Chris Withers -
Dieter Maurer -
Mario Valente -
Michael Fraase -
Richard Jones