Hello. In a week from now we'll be doing a presentation on Zope to the UCISA Software Group. They're having a day meeting in Birmingham, UK on Open Source Software. I'd beam you a URL but the site is down at present. We've been giving some thought to the best way of informing people about Zope. An outline of the ground we plan to cover is at: <http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/cms/zope/ucisa-sg/mythz.htm> and various props (in various states of readiness) can be found there. In particular there's a list of Zope Myths (and, most of the time, rebuttals). We'd be grateful for any input from members of this list. What have we missed? What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood? TIA Paul, Ian & Tim -- The Library, Tyndall Avenue, Univ. of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1TJ, UK E-mail: paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk URL: http://www.bris.ac.uk/
On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 03:01:14PM +0100, Paul Browning wrote:
What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood?
AFAIK, ZEO still does not allow you to distribute your ZODB. There is still a single, central ZEO server with a single ZODB. -- Paul Winkler "Welcome to Muppet Labs, where the future is made - today!"
This is indeed true. In order to distrbute ZODBs for redundant backup/failover you need to use ZEO and the ZRS (Zope Replication Service) software which is available from Zope Corp as a commercial (for fee) package. On Wednesday 11 September 2002 11:54 am, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 03:01:14PM +0100, Paul Browning wrote:
What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood?
AFAIK, ZEO still does not allow you to distribute your ZODB. There is still a single, central ZEO server with a single ZODB.
--
Paul Winkler "Welcome to Muppet Labs, where the future is made - today!"
On Wed, 2002-09-11 at 09:54, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 03:01:14PM +0100, Paul Browning wrote:
What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood?
AFAIK, ZEO still does not allow you to distribute your ZODB. There is still a single, central ZEO server with a single ZODB.
Actually, using shared storage, such as one may have on a SAN, or using a shared SCSI bus (I *strongly* recommend the FC-SAN route over the shared SCSI ;), and a fail over server setup, you can indeed provide fail-over ZODB services. Yes, I know fibre channel SANs are beyond the means of most on the list, but it is certainly possible. In fact, I know of a way to provide multi-site fail over using ZODB and SAN technology on Linux. In fact, if one had one of the IBM zSeries boxes ... mmm toys .... I've yet to try it out (looking for a new job takes too much time in this market), but I believe one could use this method and provide multiple read-only ZEO servers for the same DB. -- Bill Anderson Linux in Boise Club http://www.libc.org Amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic. Amateurs build Linux, professionals build Windows(tm).
We'd be grateful for any input from members of this list. What have we missed? What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood?
The DTML point as replied to is important. Its not being deprecated. I'm not risking all my content in one file: Also, alternative storages are coming out like FileStorage which allow you to spread out your content over many files. One final semi-myth you might want to cover: its slow. -- Andy McKay Agmweb Consulting http://www.agmweb.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Browning" <paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:01 AM Subject: [Zope] Zope Myths?
Hello. In a week from now we'll be doing a presentation on Zope to the UCISA Software Group. They're having a day meeting in Birmingham, UK on Open Source Software. I'd beam you a URL but the site is down at present.
We've been giving some thought to the best way of informing people about Zope. An outline of the ground we plan to cover is at:
<http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/cms/zope/ucisa-sg/mythz.htm>
and various props (in various states of readiness) can be found there.
In particular there's a list of Zope Myths (and, most of the time, rebuttals).
We'd be grateful for any input from members of this list. What have we missed? What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood?
TIA
Paul, Ian & Tim
-- The Library, Tyndall Avenue, Univ. of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1TJ, UK E-mail: paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk URL: http://www.bris.ac.uk/
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Some things to ponder: ZPT is slower than DTML DTML is slower than Python (filesystem at least) Python is slower than Perl (at least on average) Perl is slower than C C is slower than assembly assembly is slower than dedicated hardware So lets just skip on past the DTML is faster than ZPT (both are pretty slow) and implement ZPT in hardware! ;^) Its all a matter of levels. And from our perspective, development time is more valuable than CPU cycles. That's not to say that ZPT won't be optimized, but used as recommended it's quite acceptable. If your ZPT is too slow, I would say you are doing too much in ZPT. And no, DTML is not obsolete or deprecated, its just not the main templating language anymore, and not the focus of attention like it once was. -Casey On Wednesday 11 September 2002 12:15 pm, Andy McKay wrote:
We'd be grateful for any input from members of this list. What have we missed? What have we understated/exaggerated/misunderstood?
The DTML point as replied to is important. Its not being deprecated.
I'm not risking all my content in one file: Also, alternative storages are coming out like FileStorage which allow you to spread out your content over many files.
One final semi-myth you might want to cover: its slow. -- Andy McKay Agmweb Consulting http://www.agmweb.ca
One final semi-myth you might want to cover: its slow.
Actually I was referring to the myth that Zope is slow. This is a common idea. What a web server, database thing written in Python? That wont be as fast as IIS / Apache / Java stuff will it? Etc....
If your ZPT is too slow, I would say you are doing too much in ZPT.
He he. Thats it back to DTML ;) I've never heard anyone say that before.
ZPT is slower than DTML
Yep, but one day some smart cookie will probably optimize the heck out of it C and it will be faster than DTML. But we all know caching is the real answer... Im not arguing that -- Andy McKay Agmweb Consulting http://www.agmweb.ca
On Wednesday 11 September 2002 01:18 pm, Andy McKay wrote:
One final semi-myth you might want to cover: its slow.
Actually I was referring to the myth that Zope is slow. This is a common idea. What a web server, database thing written in Python? That wont be as fast as IIS / Apache / Java stuff will it? Etc....
If your ZPT is too slow, I would say you are doing too much in ZPT.
He he. Thats it back to DTML ;) I've never heard anyone say that before.
No I mean your ZPT "code" is too complex ;^) Or just make your ZPT call out to DTML methods for speed (no I'm not serious ;^) This could be generalized though as "your skin code is too complex", for best performance do as much in external Python as possible, spitting convenient data structures for the skin code to play with (but you knew that). Luckily this is even easier in Zope 3.
ZPT is slower than DTML
Yep, but one day some smart cookie will probably optimize the heck out of it C and it will be faster than DTML. But we all know caching is the real answer... Im not arguing that
I just don't think that's on anyone's radar right now... -Casey
On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 3:18 am, Andy McKay wrote:
One final semi-myth you might want to cover: its slow.
Actually I was referring to the myth that Zope is slow. This is a common idea. What a web server, database thing written in Python? That wont be as fast as IIS / Apache / Java stuff will it? Etc....
But there's intelligent ways to make Zope run fast. See http://www.zope.org/Members/richard/docs/zope_optimisation.html
If your ZPT is too slow, I would say you are doing too much in ZPT.
He he. Thats it back to DTML ;) I've never heard anyone say that before.
I believe the implication was to move stuff into Python Script ;) Richard
--On 11 September 2002 15:01 +0100 Paul Browning <paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
Hello. In a week from now we'll be doing a presentation on Zope to the UCISA Software Group. They're having a day meeting in Birmingham, UK on Open Source Software. I'd beam you a URL but the site is down at present.
It's back up: <http://www.ucisa.ac.uk/groups/sg/events-papers/opensource/birmingham_event .html> (this is Zope-hosted as it happens ....)
We've been giving some thought to the best way of informing people about Zope. An outline of the ground we plan to cover is at:
<http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/cms/zope/ucisa-sg/mythz.htm>
Now revised in the light of feedback. Specifically the sections on "I have to script in DTML" (in my dictionary "deprecated" = "disapproved of " not "discontinued" but clearly this touched a raw nerve) and "I'm not risking all my content in one file" amended and "Zope is slow" added. Thanks for your input, Paul -- The Library, Tyndall Avenue, Univ. of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1TJ, UK E-mail: paul.browning@bristol.ac.uk URL: http://www.bris.ac.uk/
participants (6)
-
Andy McKay -
Bill Anderson -
Casey Duncan -
Paul Browning -
Paul Winkler -
Richard Jones