[ZDP] Re: Stuff

[Maik Roeder]

Hi Rik !

> >> We are talking about _low_ level entry stuff here.
> >
> >So, there must be a problem with deciding to be one of the following:
> >
> >Prospective Zope Users & Developers
> >Zope Users
> >Zope Developers
> >Zope Hackers
> >Zope Administrators
> >Zope Documentation Portal
> >Members
> >Web Designers
> >New Zope Users & Developers
> >
> >Is that the case ?
> 
> That is the case,

Could we perphaps rephrase it to the following ?:

Prospective Zope Users & Developers -> Never heard about Zope ?
New Zope Users & Developers -> Just got started with Zope ?
Zope Users -> Using Zope for basic stuff ?
Zope Developers -> Using Zope for advanced stuff ?
Zope Hackers -> Working on Zope internals ?
Zope Administrators -> Administrating a Zope server ?
Zope Documentation Portal Members -> Member of the ZDP site ?
Web Designers -> Using Zope to design web pages ?

> but more fundamentally the case is that IMNHO there is no
> hierarchy on the site. Everything is presented all at once, to everyone at
> the same time. 

People expect the FAQ, Snippets, ZQR, ZBook and all the rest
of the documents on the front page right now, so I present it
there until it is all integrated in the portals, and we
can remove the stuff from the front page. 

> It is a matter of choosing audience. 

Right, so maybe we need a front page where everyone has to
choose a portal, and nothing else. 

> For who is the site. For all Zope users, presumably (see the quotes below). 

Yes, for the whole Zope community.

> All Zope users are equal for the ZDP. To me, this means you should present
> the tailor made information to them. Now, you first have to choose what
> type of information you want, and I still think the site is not helpful 
> enough for making the choice.

Right, it is just the old ZDP site, only that we now additionally have the
portals. I will probably break the whole site again, and make people choose
the portal. There I will only present the stuff relevant for them.
 
> >Thanks for doing this type of usability studies. It would be great it
> >someone could do this on people that have never visited the ZDP site.
> 
> I could try and ask some of my co-workers to visit it.

That would be great.
 
> >So, is this not enough for people to decide where to go ?
> 
> No. My case was that people come to _get_ information, not to _contribute_
> it.

I had changed the text to this:

"Join our effort to provide a knowledge base on Zope 
with entry points to all relevant pieces of
information relating to Zope."

From what you propose, I would change it to:

"The Zope knowledge base provides entry points
to all relevant pieces of information relating to
Zope"

> While these are both ligitimate approaches, I think it's wrong to mix
> these up. Most people are lazy. Make it as easy for them as you can (if you
> want to keep them)

OK. Do you think it is a good idea to have the 

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links in place that allow anonymous to add stuff inside the portals,
or should these be hidden, to make it a place where you just get
information, and not contribute directly.

> >> How would you know
> >> they were portals and not dmoz like categories - they look like search
> >> categories?
> >
> >I agree that the text on top of the portals is not telling you about that:
> >
> >"Choose a Subject or Topic in your Portal (Subjects are contained in
> Portals.
> >Topics are contained in Subjects.)"
> 
> This text is too cryptic.

Yes, I agree.

> Alternative:
> 
> "This site has information about the Open Source Web Information Platform
> called Zope. It strives to serve this to all sorts of Zope users, both
> beginners and advanced, newbies and hackers. This site is in development, so
> please check back regularly to see if something of importance for you has
> been added.
>
>  All information is contained in Portals. Portals offer specific types of
> information. The portals, with a short description:
> 
> - Evaluators - check out about Zope. Is it for you? What can it do for you?
> How does it compare to other Web application platforms
>  .
> .
> 
> A same sort of text should precede the different projects (ZBook, ZSnippets
> etc)"

Sounds good. I'll work out something like this later.

> >> WHat results should you expect?
> >
> >All that is contained in the ZDP site.
> >
> 
> But the site wasn't introduced! So what would that be?

Good point, but I don't know many sites that introduce themselves.
Maybe I only visit well-established sites that don't have
introductory text, but I also think that people don't read on
the web, they just scan text, so you should avoid lenghty 
introductions.
 
> >> How should you know all this?
> >
> >Users expect what they know from other internet sites, so they have
> >a good idea about what they can find here.
> 
> Mwah, you're too optimistic

Alright, people mostly visit only a start page, and don't dig any
deeper if they don't find what they need directly, so the start
page really should make clear what can be found on the site.
 
> >> How would I know whether I'm a developer or a hacker.
> >
> >There is an introductory text in the portal, which makes it easy to
> >decide whether you are a developer or hacker.
> >
> 
> say so on the frontpage. On the other hand, you shouldn't send people
> somewhere to find out if its the right place for them.

Very good point !
 
> >> How does all this relate to zope.org?
> >
> >The portals themselves relate to Zope in the predefined searches,
> >the links, and the references in the content.
> 
> I meant - what is the relation between the ZDP and zope.org. This is
> something that is not entirely clear to us, so how could we make that clear
> to our users?

We can only tell the users that we have no clue yet how the both
sites relate, and that the reality right now is that we are doing
the FAQ, Snippets, ZBook, ZQR and Portals on the ZDP site, and that
the Howtos, Products and Tips are on the Zope.org site. And also
the ZDP site does have different members than the Zope.org site.
 
> Hope I have clarified my concerns.

Yes, now I see your point much clearer ! I'll work on this soon.

> i"m willing to do some more writing for the homepage, if you want
> me to.

Do you mean the entry point ? These really need to be done. A quick
introduction on the topics is needed together with the best resources
you can find.

Best regards,

Maik