[ZDP] ZDP & Zope.org

[Maik Roeder]

Hi mindlace !

ethan mindlace fremen wrote:
> > > > The ZDP is aiming to become the starting point for the Zope
> > > > community.
> 
> > In that the aim is the same. All we have to do now is merge.
> 
> I would have assumed that the ZDP's goal would be something along
> the lines of "To be the comprehensive resource for Zope Documentation".

The question is just how people get to the documentation they need.
It is an observation that people tend to miss important pieces of 
documentation that exist, which nobody pointed them to. That's how
the idea came up that we need a place where we outline a topic and
provide pointers to the important pieces of documentation that exist.
To guess what documentation people need, you have to separate them in
advance into groups, and so the idea came up to have these different
portals. The next logical step would be to add a news section. So
suddenly you have a place where it makes sense to check back every
so often to see whether something new has been added to the
documentation that may be of interest to you.

We are not there yet, but the goal must be to help people find the
documentation they need, and keep them informed about what's new,
so it's a starting point for the whole Zope community in their search
for documentation.
 
> > > > The software on the Zope.org site is not open, so the only thing we can
> > > > do is do our own thing on ZDP.
> > >
> > > How is the software on the Zope.org site not open?
> >
> > In the sense that I can't change it's implementation.
> 
> I'm not at all certain that the implementation, i.e. products, should be
> at all open for change.

Then we would depend on the time that a DC employee has to add
features. I'd rather have a system where different parts are
managed by certain parts of the community. For example on the
ZDP-Tools site someone is responsible for the Snippets, someone
for the FAQ, and so on.

> One of the challenges I have with zope.org is that it has grown
> organically, as various DC folks found the time to go in and do
> something.  This has left it in a state that's complex to manage.

It's hard to comment on this when I can't see the implementation.
In the ZDP-Tools, everything is highly modularized, and not much
functionality is added in the many ZClasses that have emerged. I am
not claiming that the ZDP-Tools offer all the features of the 
Zope.org site, but they are definitely not complex to manage,
and I can't see why that would change once all the features have
been added.
 
> While I'm trying to move to a point where creation of content, its
> reviewing, and the views on the content are done by larger or smaller
> subsets of the Zope community, the products themselves need to stay
> stable.
>
> That being said, there's a lot of product work that needs to be done for
> the next version of zope.org.  I'll be leveraging off of existing
> efforts as much as possible, so most of the downloaded things will be
> already on the product page, but some of it will still need to be
> downloaded.
> 
> You could help by adding use cases to the zope-web wiki,
> http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-web to help me capture what users really
> do as opposed to what I want them to do.

I'd rather make up my mind how to change the ZDP-Tools to better fit
what people want to do, because then I can implement it myself if
I want to. Feel free to look at all the tasks and discussions that
have been going on at ZDP. That will surely help to see where the
problems are.
 
> > > How would it be open ?
> >
> > If the implementation were free to be changed, and free to be downloaded,
> > and free to be shared.
> 
> I'm working on this:
> 
> With the next version of zope.org, there will be a "how to clone
> zope.org" howto.
> As of 2.2 Zope.org will be running on the "stock" zope. I will work very
> hard to ensure that this stays that way.  If, for some reason, it cannot
> be stock, instructions for making your zope like zope.org's zope will be
> made availiable.
> Any products we use will be availiable for download.

Sounds great.
 
> > >  How is the software on the ZDP open ?
> >
> > In the sense that anyone can change everything,
> 
> Is this true? Perhaps you mean that "anyone can get certain levels of
> access to the zdp site provided they show interest, ability, and an
> abscence of maliciousness".
> 
> Surely you don't hand root management permission to anyone who asks.

Everyone can get a root account to do make changes to the parts of the
site that needs work. It can happen that people break something along
the line, so I just ask them to check everytime to see that the most important
pages still work. Whatever is still broken will soon be found and corrected
anyway. It can't be much though, because the ZDP-Tools are highly modularized.
 
> > anyone can get the code and share it with anyone.
> 
> Tracking down the ZDP-tools from a fresh start was a bit of a
> challenge.  Is there a reason they're not listed in the zope product
> page?

It is hard to find them, but if you click long enough on the search,
you'll find them here:

http://www.zope.org/SiteIndex/search?text_content=&meta_type%3Alist=Product+Release&date_usage=range%3Amin&date%3Adate=1969%2F12%2F31++16%3A00%3A00+US%2FPacific&query_start=141

> That being said, this particular aspect will be availiable.  Making
> products open for people to change is just not going to happen without a
> lot of latency, because our move to ZEO complicates the products picture
> substantially.

I usually react to user requests within hours, so this would be a reason
for me to stick with the ZDP site for a while.
 
> > > > > The mailing list is helpful, but it's just too much.
> > > >
> > > > I hope that we can integrate the mailing list in the ZDP site, so
> > > > extracting, citing and giving credit is easier.
> > >
> > > Heh.  And I hope to see this in zope.org, too :)
> >
> > Then let's do it together. There is already a task on the zdp site
> > for this, which you may want to take into consideration.
> 
> I can't find it under Tasks. Can you point it out to me?

Sorry, I forgot that it only was a proposal for a task:

http://zdp.zope.org/projects/zdptools/Drafts/955199659
 
> > > We're going to be emphasizing this too, though we're planning on carving
> > > things into only three groups:  developers, site builders, and buisness
> > > folks.
> >
> > But then again, in the HelpSystem you are using Content Managers,
> > DTML Programmers and Python Programmers as category values. Maybe
> > you want to split the developers into these groups ?
> 
> Well, at the moment, the development part will be for product coders
> (ala PTK) and zope source code hackers.  The builder part will be for
> content managers/dtml programmers.

Then you could use builders and developers in the help system as well.
 
> As there will be a domain for each of these roles, I'm rather against >
> 3 "extra" domains:
> 
> www.zope.org -> general start
> dev.zope.org -> product coders (ala PTK) and zope source code hackers
> biz.zope.org -> buisness folks.
>  do.zope.org -> content managers/dtml programmers.
> zdp.zope.org -> comprehensive documentation, no matter your orientation
> (?)

Looks ok.

> > > I am here to work with the community.
> >
> > I still have the impression lot's of stuff is going on in the background.
> 
> Well, I have been talking to a lot of DC folks because I'm trying to get
> my feet on the ground, but I assure you, this is the man behind the
> curtain.  I don't do anything without talking about it on the zope-web
> wiki or at zope-web@zope.org .  I also try to mention my work in the
> Zope Weekly News.

Good to know.

Best regards,

Maik Röder
 



-- 
Open Source is "about being able to work together with people you've
never  met, on projects that  are in  a constant state  of flux,  on 
a time schedule  that would  cause a  hummingbird's  head to  spin."
Paul Ferris, http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/1593/1/