[ZDP] portal comments..

[Christian Scholz]

Hi Maik!

> > The main page is too full.
> 
> I would like to just have the portals there.

Ok, that will do it ;-) I think that ongoing projects might also
be mentioned but not directly the contents.

> > When clicking some portal links all I get are "empty" pages
> > meaning pages which invite me to add something.. 
> > I don't think that this is good for first time visitors because
> > you never know which portal already contains something. If you
> > only get "nothing" users might get frustrated.
> 
> This has inspired me to allow users to add comments, drafts, 
> links and questions to the Topics directly. So, if there is
> an empty page, at least the people see that they can get
> a first post ;-)

I noticed that :)

> > Also if they do the search it might not be that clear how to add
> > information. There should be some button/whatever. 
> 
> We can surround every single bit of content in it's Topic from
> the Portals ! For example when you get to a Howto
> via a Search, but this Howto is presented embedded in the
> Community/Subject/Topic/ hierarchy. This allows people to jump
> back to the Topic/Subject/Community again. Then adding a
> comment would mean adding it to the Topic instead of to the
> document, although it should also be possible to add a 
> comment to a specific document, but I don't know how.

Hm, I don't think I understand this.. ;-)

> >  I think that the main goal of ZDP should be to provide information
> >  and the second to gather it.
> 
> We are providing existing information on the ZDP site through
> the Portals now. Gathering the new information is done first
> by the community. The ZDP is then responsible for separating
> the good stuff and put it in front. Also, we need to delete
> bad information and generally moderate discussions that may
> come up.

I know but again I think that most users will come to find information
and they might be frustrated in seeing that everywhere they click they
only get empty pages. So at first it looks like "Hey cool, so much stuff"
when seeing all the portals but then they might quickly get disappointed.

But with the "Add *" buttons now it might be clear at least that information
could be added (thus maybe not directly by the people who were searching for it).

> > Thus the "normal" user should first be
> >  presented with areas where information is already existing.
> 
> I don't think it is important that there already exists something.
> In my opinion it is better to set a framework, and let people
> know that the community can work together with the ZDP by
> adding stuff that needs to be discussed.

I think at least there should be some description what there is supposed
to be at the actual item where I am. Right now I only have some automatically
generated headlines like 
 
     All Resources and Links relating to the Subject "Design Patterns" and all Topics for Hackers 

which does not everywhere make clear what's supposed to be there.

> >  Also the maintainers for the portal pages are not linked and thus
> >  not accessible (but this is sure a minor problem and quickly solved).
> 
> I want to have moderators for each Portal. Then there need to be
> Moderators for each Subject and possibly Topic.

I was basically just reporting a bug that "Contributed by kamon" is not linked
to kamon to send some mail or whatever. On other pages this is active.
(e.g. in http://zdp.zope.org/portals/hackers/designpatterns it's not)

> > The header seems to big. Depending on your window size it might take
> > half or more of the content area. This should maybe changed. Maybe
> > at least the search area can be moved to the bottom and the links
> > to OSWG, etc. are also not that important at the deeper pages.
> 
> Right, but the Search area needs to remain there. Otherwise
> I agree.

Hm, I will try another design with some integrated search field to save
as much space as I can.. (weekend).

> > Stuff is sometimes shown a little too technical. E.g.
> > 1) When I click on "members" I get a headline "Member folder"
> >    and a list with icons and names. This should maybe changed
> >    to a normal list without icons and a "normal" headline like
> >    "Members" ;-)
> 
> I have changed that.

Cool, now also the links are under the words and not just the icons.
This might be changed at other places, too.
Now I would also remove the icon next to "Members" as this points to
the same page. 
(and thinking of the ZDP News page I would also remove the icons next
to the news items. I don't think we will need to jump to a page with
only the one news item on it.).

> > 2) I click on "What's new" and get a similar list and don't know
> >    what to do with it (at least the first time user might not know).
> 
> This needs to be changed radically anyway.
> 
> >    Also the list seems to be too long. So maybe some "more items.."
> >    links should be provided.
> 
> I have reduced the size of this list, and put the following desciption in:
> "This is a list of all documents that have changed in the last 2 days."

Ok, again I would remove the icon next to the headline.

> >    When I now click on "ZDP Members" I get again get the "Get involved"
> >    message and lots of links like "Tasks", "Portal" which make not
> >    that much sense to be until I click them. And even after clicking
> >    I dunno what they are supposed to be for ;-)
> 
> This is an open field. ZDP Members need to know how to work with Portals,
> Tasks and so on. I think this is the right place to put the howtos in
> as I have discussed with Tom.
> 
> >       Maybe the nesting is also a little bit deep..
> >       (like ZDP  >  Portals  >  Members  >  Tasks  >  Task  )
> 
> Or we need to put the meta information above:
> 
> ZDP Portals > Portals > Community: "Members" > Subject: "Tasks" > Topic: "Task"

I dunno yet how to change it and will think about it. Actually I think that
you need to many links right now before you find information (if there is any).

> > Let join everybody easily and add informationen which then must be
> > reviewed by the maintainers before it's published.
> 
> I have another approach: People can add stuff as anonymous. This is
> presented below "Your Links:", "Your Questions " and so on. Then
> a Moderator of a Subject needs to select the good links and put them
> on top in the "Our Links". Maybe the naming could be better,
> like "Our selected Links", or something like that. 

Well, I dunno about this. In both cases there must be a maintainer to
review. The difference would be that contributed links are faster on 
the net (=directly). 

The Joining aspect might be also interesting as you will notice which
users (which are identified by then) are contributing much and how
valuable these contributions are. Then you could ask them to be a 
moderator or to be able to add things without reviewing/whatever.

> Users first see the quality stuff that has been reviewed, and then
> also the unmoderated stuff that anyone can add. People can even
> add a comment saying that a certain link needs to be moderated up
> because it has helped them. Perhaps also, comments, links, snippets
> should be moderated anyway ?

Ok, a good point. Depends on how much "trash" might be added if you want
it to be public directly or not. Maybe this should also be done in a way
that it can be changed later quite quickly.

> > Put also the names of the contributors near their
> > contributions that they have some motivation to add content. 
> 
> Thanks for the hint. I have added this.

Good :) The layout is maybe not optimal as it might to much space
when more links are there. When I have some time I will try to make
some proposals regarding layout of some pages (if you don't mind).

> > I will try to order this for me a little bit and write it down. Maybe you
> > also have additions to it. Then I will try to map this description to some
> > layout (as ZDP was changing quite frequently the last days this maybe should
> > be done in a separate place and published when it's finish. Thus users of ZDP
> > might not be confused by a new layout everyday ;-)
> 
> I think you should be allowed to program in public. This way people will
> know how much hard work it is.

I didn't say that the development should be top secret ;-) I just was thinking
of maybe two servers, one "stable" and one "unstable". I just don't want to
confuse the user with daily changing layouts ;-)

> > So, got a little long and maybe also a little chaotic.. hope you don't mind.. :)
> 
> I have tried to make the necessary changes from what you noted. I think
> that your comments have been very constructive, and it has been really fun
> discussing this with you !

Good, I also know how much work it is and that it's quite a big project.
And it will maybe never finished (is there any finished project?!?). I will also
help where I can.

Maybe we can also meet (aren't you in Bonn or the area? I'm in Aachen so not that
far away) and discuss things a bit easier.. ;-)


greetings!

Christian