[ZDP] ZDP

[Rik Hoekstra]

Replying to Tom and Maik at once

> Tom Deprez wrote:
> > Since a few weeks I'm starting to think that ZDP just doesn't want to be
> > helped. When I first saw ZDP, I think it was already almost dead(forgive me
> > if I'm wrong). I started ZBook and wrote some pages and some members of ZDP
> > contributed and helped me a lot with it. Unfortunately, at a certain time
> > also ZBook stopped, because of the simpel fact that we didn't got a
> > reaction. So, why should somebody write something when NOBODY even wants to
> > say: well I liked this part, but that... and here I've just something
> > written down what can be contributed... but no, nothing!! So, are ZOPE
> > people REALLY interested in documentation? They yell a lot about
> > documentation, but when it is there, they don't look at it...

THese are the same concerns I have uttered before. 

> 
> Maybe new drafts should be sent to the mailing list, so you can get some
> reactions.

Could...


> 
> The real problem seems to be that everyone is too busy, and that there are
> too few people interested in helping.
> 

This seems to be a fact. How can we change it?


> > Another point is that people working on ZDP don't follow a certain schedule.
> > Partly because we all work on this during our free times, but also because
> > we just don't have a general idea about ZDP! Also a few months ago (still
> > old ZDP then), I wrote some specs and asked if people would look at it.
> > Until now (and now it isn't possible anymore, because that site is gone), I
> > hadn't got any reaction. It's funny, but now I sometimes see some new
> > changes which actually already stood in these specs. So why didn't somebody
> > just has a look at these specs? It makes people a little bit broken.
> 
> We now put such things in the Task Folder. If you have a suggestion, then
> just put it up there.
> 
> > At this moment I more liked the old ZDP. Possibly because the new site isn't
> > finished yet, but more likely that I don't have a clue to where ZDP is
> > heading! What to do with these old projects, like ZBook, ZFAQ? etc.... I
> > like these. They now are pushed to the background and probalbly will never
> > see the light again.
> 
> Well, the projects are not important for the visitors. The visitors just
> want to get to the documentation.

Yes, but like someone remarked: the presentation will not do.
I think we now have many useful things in store as is, but they lead
nowhere and they have too little relation to each other. This is partly
because we do not have a masterplan. But then again, all past efforts to
masterplans have stranded in a babylonic confusion of tongues. Perhaps
it is really time to organize a get together. We got started on one, but
that also never got to anything. Is Aachen still an option? 

Another way that might help is to start using a Wiki more. I really do
have a concern at it not being integrated with the mailing list. 


> 
> When the member portal is finished, then you can find the
> projects there.
> 
> I think we are heading to a site where everyone chooses a community of
> people sharing his or her interests. Then you have a subject and
> a topic you would like to know more about, and share your ideas with
> people having the same interests.

This will only be possible if we blend in with the zope.org site. At
zope.org is the real community. It won't listen to us, so the main
question is how to improve this. Hell, we never really got DC to listen
to us. Once again: how do we change this: by providing _the_ zope
documentation, preferably through zope.org, not through the zdp site I'm
afraid. Perhaps Ethan can come up with ideas. As an intermediate
measure, perhaps we could make a RSS for the zope site.


> 
> For me it is already working. When I do some research on a specific
> topic, I try to figure out for which target audience it is interesting,
> create a subject if necessary, and some topics under that.
> 
> It would also be cool if you could put an abstract from all ZBook
> chapters into the Portal ! Then you can point to your chapter from
> there, making some advertisement.
> 
> Also, I have been thinking about a News section on the front page,
> and hiding the different portals just a little bit. So, we need to
> make a news item out of every single change to the ZDP site ;-)

yegh. I'm convinced we need a flexible homepage for the zdp, where users
can put up whatever they want, including their own links to zope
material. Furthermore we need an effective searching option. Most likely
this should be first by category, _then_ by freetext search. Searching
in free text is difficult. I almost always avoid putting up a freetext
search for my databases, because users always complain about not being
able to find something. Hyperlinks are much more usable then related
searches. 
In the Netherlands there was a one and a half year old initiative called
startpagin.nl <url: www.startpagina.nl>. If you do not read Dutch, it
will still be understandable I think. It is customizable for all its
users. It got such a big success that it was bought up by a publishing
company just recently. We do not have to copy the interface (which not
entirely useful, but we might learn something about the concept).

We need a Zope Quickstart for all subjects in zope. I started one, and
I'll go on with it, but it'll take time. We have to gather what we have
in documentation _on_the_frontpage. We can't integrate the DC
documentation. Perhaps we can do something to integrate it with.

> 
> > At the moment I also don't see who's working on what and even who is working
> > on ZDP. This is one of the key things to have a good working project. Also
> > this is asked a few months back, but not much people sended us some
> > information. How the hell can you coördinate something?
> 
> I have been working really slow the past 2 weeks, and only a few people
> have done something on the site. So, there simply is not much to coordinate
> right now.

Right. THe thing is, the ZDP has no real pace; it depends too much on
individuals to do contributions. This is fine, but it is hard to
coordinate. Moreover, we change frameworks, as a result everyone gets
lost. We have maintainers for all parts of the site, but hardly anyone
ever contributes beyond his own maintenance area. THis is mainly due to
a lack of people, but I myself also get lost on the site at times. How
to improve this. 


The main question is: how to make it (look) simple to use the ZDP, both
as a contributor and as a user.


> 
> > Argh, well, I'll just stop writing, before I upset people with my wrongly
> > choosen words. A conversation like this can't be done through e-mail. It can
> > only be done when talking around a table...

See above.

> 
> I don't mind some harsh words if they are justified.
> 
> > I only want to make the following clear:
> >
> > Are people willing to make a good Zope Documentation Portal?
> 
> All this only makes sense when someone from DC is sitting
> with us on the table. We should contact mindlace, because it
> is his job to help with the documentation.

Yes, and Amos, but he seems to be changing offices.

> 
> > If so, we need to know these things :
> >
> > 1. Who's willing to help? And what can he/she offer?
> 
> I can offer help in any respect.
> 
> > 2. What are the goals? Let us write them down and sort them out. Then we
> > make a schedule and this will help us much further in the ZDP project.
> 
> The following article is really great:
> 
> http://www.photo.net/building-community/

The point is that DC already has succeeded in creating a community
around Zope. We have to ask ourselves _how_ to use it. We will _not_ be
able to build a community by ourselves, if only if we do not have the
resources. How can we convince DC that it is a critical issue for them
to adopt the ZDP as part of the community?


> 
> > I'm willing to coördinate these 2 points, so just now let us talk and write
> > down a schedule for the future.
> 
> Everyone should read the article, so we can start discussing.

mwah.I'll discuss anyway ;-) (but I'll read it)

Rik