[Zope-dev] IMO ZClasses should stay

[Jim Fulton]

Andreas Jung wrote:
> 
> 
> --On 24. März 2006 12:03:42 -0500 Jim Fulton <jim at zope.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>> There are lots of people who have good uses for ZClasses for
>> quick one-off projects.  I've heard from some of them.
>>
> 
>>
>> There are lots of people who use Zope who don't fit this
>> definition.  I care about these people. :)
> 
> 
> I've haven't seen those ppl raising their hand when making the proposal.
> I assume they died of ZClasses-disease.

Actually, they've met with ridicule, or so I'm told
and probably didn't think their opinions were welcome.

>>> Through-the-web
>>> scripters can write their applications using ZPT, Python scripts etc.
>>
>>
>> No, they also need to be able to create simple content types.
> 
> 
> A somewhat talented developer will succeed in doing filesystem-based
> development. The scripters I've seen so far either developed their 
> skills or had other ppl in their team doing a related development.

I know you are aware of the non-developer who built a successful
content-management system that replaced Vignette in a major media
company.  They did this with ZClasses.

Of course, in this case, they eventually hired developers to
reimplement the app in a more scalable and maintainable form.
Still their use of ZClasses was extremely rewarding for them
and later for the developer.


>>> Only ppl with legacy code or ppl unwilling to migrate their apps to a
>>> filesystem-based implementation are still using ZClasses. None of us is
>>> announcing ZClasses as solution to develop wit Zope.
>>
>>
>> ZClasses are not a good solution for developing products or
>> complex applications requiring maintenance. They are a
>> reasonable solution for quick one-off apps.
>>
> 
> That's what we are trying to tell to the ppl with the deprecating warning.
> ZClasses can be/are a one-way road.

What we should tell them is that they aren't a road at all. :)


>>
>>> Do we need something better? Can't ppl solve their problems with the
>>> solutions mentioned above?
>>
>>
>> I think we need a good "scripting" story for non developers.  A better
>> story might look nothing like ZClasses. It might not even be TTW,
>> but I hate to toss ZClasses until we have something better.
> 
> 
> As mentioned in my other mail. We will keep than as long they are 
> maintainable in a reasonable way but we must tell the ppl clearly about 
> the pros and  cons (especially the cons).

Yup.

>>
>>  > We should spend this time
>>
>>> on useful Zope projects and not in supporting ancient concepts that
>>> don't help the majority of the Zope developers.
>>
>>
>> If the only things we can support are things that I can work on, we are
>> in big trouble.
> 
> 
> Right but as you know Zope 2.8 was delayed  for a long time because you 
> were the only person able or willing to fix the outstanding ZClasses 
> problems.

Yup.

>>  I can help out with really deep things.
> 
> 
> Of course we appreciate that but having a single person to be able to 
> deal with singularities as ZClasses is always a bottleneck especially 
> since we changed to a timed-based release schedule.
> 
> 
> There are
> 
>> some shallow things that could be done, like writing docs and removing
>> harmful features, which should be UI work.  You are right, If no one
>> but me is willing to do any work on them, they should probably go.
> 
> 
> 'willing' to work on something is possibly the largest problem in the 
> Zope 2
> world right now.

Yup

 > I do also prefer to spend my time on more interesting
> projects in the Zope world than digging through ancient, scary code.

We have to be willing to work on old code.  We can't always be
inventing new code.

Jim

-- 
Jim Fulton           mailto:jim at zope.com       Python Powered!
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