[Zope] Re: reality check - The REAL issue

[Nitin Borwankar]

Christopher Petrilli wrote:
> 
> >From teaching Zope to people, what I emphasise is the concepts, not the
> particulars.  If people truly understand the idea of object traversal,
> acquisition, etc., then the rest is pretty wrote.  Unfortunately, we've not
> done a good job of making the concepts as well explained as they should be.

I would have to disagree.
The concepts are explained far better than the particulars.
and it is particular information that is needed when we need to get work
done.
Understanding acquisition, roles, permissions at the conceptual level,
doesn't help all that much when you have to write a ZSQL method, link it
to a 
DTML method and call it from a DTML document keeping all the
linkages in sync.  I was swimming in this yesterday and I have had no
problem understanding Zope architectural concepts.
Zope concepts are why I am using Zope and am willing even to pickup
Python.  But the lack of particular information is driving me up the
wall.
By the way I have developed Java Servlet and EJB applications for large
sites.
It's "read the code if it's not in the docs" that I have a problem with.

Also, the examples in the docs use the simplest cases leaving no hints
or pointers
to real world situations.
e.g.
The external method example in ZCMG uses an external method that does
not take 
arguments. What about one that does ? Do we declare these in the method
creation form
- no that doesn't work. Maybe it's not needed. Let' just try passing it
parameters.
How do we pass parameter's - let's try <dtml-call ...> no that doesn't
work how about <dtml-var func(REQUEST['field1'], REQUEST['field2'])> 
oh that seems to work! Oh it's because my external method was returning
a string value
which I wanted to be in the page.

Is it that hard to put that in the docs near external methods ?  
I found it somewhere else.

One major suggestion - look at the Java Tutorial and see how they have
created "trails" - we need trails.

Needed - a database development trail, a security management trail, a
dynamic document
trail, a product trail ...
Each trail should have some *real world* examples and via links point to
existing
info even if it's in the how-to or tips.

More than the detailed docs please create some real tutorials,  that
would be very helpful.
Also a Zope newbies list where even the stupidest questions can be
asked, and answered
would help in the interim, while docs are being fleshed out.
Too many stupid RTFM questions on the zope list and understandably
everyone
gets irritated.  I would read the FM if I knew which one :-) or if there
was one!


Nitin.


> 
> Chris
> --
> | Christopher Petrilli        Python Powered        Digital Creations, Inc.
> | petrilli@digicool.com                             http://www.digicool.com
> 
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