[Zope] Usability of Zope (Was: DTML Syntax contd. + rant)

[Paul Everitt]

I've been following this thread with interest, albeit from within the
air raid bunker.  Martijn seems to have touched a nerve. :^)

Here's what I'd like to see.  Could someone post a recap of the
discussion?  I did this recently for the "Zope Front Door" thread and
found it to be an invaluable exercise.

Zope's usability needs to improve a LOT.  I got a good dose of this when
I taught a three day Zope course several months back.  When you have to
explain it to people, you really find out how baroque Zope can be.

Though I agree with Andrew that the problem isn't just DTML, that seems
to be a locus.  DTML *is* being used in a way that violates its design
(separation of presentation and logic).  But at the same time we at DC
lead the way on this violation, and aren't actively promoting viable
alternatives.

I'll say this about an ngDTML effort: good luck.  The current quandry
exists for a reason: there are a lot of tough design choices.  That
which is clear to the Python hacker is obtuse to the HTML newbie.  That
which is clear to the DTML developer is inefficient to the
parser/renderer.  That which is...

I *really* hope we get some traction on what to do here.

--Paul