[Zope] Usability of Zope (Was: DTML Syntax contd. + rant)

[Martijn Faassen]

Paul Everitt wrote:
> 
> I've been following this thread with interest, albeit from within the
> air raid bunker.  Martijn seems to have touched a nerve. :^)

I must be in touch with the Zope community, or something. :)

> Here's what I'd like to see.  Could someone post a recap of the
> discussion?  I did this recently for the "Zope Front Door" thread and
> found it to be an invaluable exercise.

Hm, not me, probably. No time, no time.. Good idea though.
 
> Zope's usability needs to improve a LOT.  I got a good dose of this when
> I taught a three day Zope course several months back.  When you have to
> explain it to people, you really find out how baroque Zope can be.

Right, to look at anything from a newbie's perspective can be very
enlightening.
 
> Though I agree with Andrew that the problem isn't just DTML, that seems
> to be a locus.

Yes. I think Zope's design as a whole is elegant and *does* use unifying
concepts everywhere (such as acquisition). The system has conceptual
integrity and generally this is respected during development.

I believe however that in some places, especially the DTML area, this
conceptual integrity is currently being harmed. With me this tends to
raise the 'Redesign' flag, but it tends to get raised rather quickly
with me anyway.

> DTML *is* being used in a way that violates its design
> (separation of presentation and logic).  But at the same time we at DC
> lead the way on this violation, and aren't actively promoting viable
> alternatives.

I'm glad you can recognize that. Open source rulzez! :)

> I'll say this about an ngDTML effort: good luck.  The current quandry
> exists for a reason: there are a lot of tough design choices.  That
> which is clear to the Python hacker is obtuse to the HTML newbie.  That
> which is clear to the DTML developer is inefficient to the
> parser/renderer.  That which is...

Yes, definitely understood. Luck and hard thought would definitely be
necessary. In the mean while other fixes will be necessary, as any
ngDTML project will need a lot of time.

> I *really* hope we get some traction on what to do here.

Me too.

Regards,

Martijn