[ZCommerce] RE: Philip leaves Arsdigita (was: Re: [Zope] kerberos ?
+ LDAP + ecommerce + ZEO replication etc)
Chris McDonough
chrism@digicool.com
Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:43:13 -0400
Please note that the email I sent does not count as an "official DC
response". I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but I felt that
your plea deserved a response (I didn't want to see it slip through the
cracks) and it's the best I could do at the moment. I haven't the
authority to make any sort of real decision regarding any DC involvement
in the porting of the openacs ecommerce package to Zope.
Here are the people that do:
paul@digicool.com
rob@digicool.com
jim@digicool.com
I'm bowing out now, because any further commentary from me is just so
much hot air.
- C
Albert Langer wrote:
>
> I agree with your suggestion that ecommerce based on OpenACS4
> should be "fishbowled" and will even count that as
> expressing "interest".
>
> However after nearly a year, and at this particular moment, it
> is nowhere near *enough* interest because of events that have
> just happened and are happening right now.
>
> I also agree that in asking DC to put some resources into it:
>
> '...the question that needs to be answered is "How does it immediately
> help DC to reimplement the ACS ecommerce module inside Zope?" The answer so
> far hasn't been compelling enough for a project to be created.'
>
> and that:
>
> 'DC has limited resources, and making a committment to port the
> ACS ecommerce module can't possibly be done without being able to see a
> tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company.'
>
> How *could* a compelling enough answer to that question for a
> project to be created be available if nobody from DC has
> actually studied the recent events to seek an answer?
>
> So who is to answer that question? A grassroots community effort?
> Why should we, if it so happens that we merely wish DC well and are
> very appreciative of DC having made possible the benefits of Zope
> for the things we *are* interested in, but do *not* have a focus
> on tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company?
>
> The only way *that* question can be answered is by DC staffers
> being assigned to take a look and answer it. It can't be answered
> by me having said that I've taken a very close look and concluded
> that DC would have the most to gain from getting it done quickly.
> Nor can it be answered by you off the top of your head.
>
> It can only be answered by someone from DC taking the time (I
> believe your estimate of a week, made nearly a year ago is
> reasonable), to checkout what's been happening with arsDigita
> and OpenACS very recently and thoroughly review both
> the ACS4 documentation and code and what interest DC might
> have in a solid turnkey ecommerce package and an escape route
> from Oracle in it's commercial contracts.
>
> It certainly can't be answered by waiting to see if someone
> *else* stands to gain enough from this job being done to
> take up the mantle of actually carrying it through.
>
> All I'm going to do is make suggestions. I'll certainly
> help if there *is* a fishbowl project, but I'm in no
> position to get one started. I doubt that *anyone* other
> than DC "stands to gain the most benefit".
>
> Likewise the various people who have been working on
> various Zope based ecommerce projects would be very
> likely to help but have shown no likelihood of being
> able to deliver what is needed to carry it through
> without some sort of coordinated effort sponsored by
> DC. You *don't* need to wait to see whether a
> grassroots effort is the solution. There has been one
> for more than a year in the zcommerce list and it
> very obviously is *not* the solution. Has DC gained
> any "tangible monetary benefit" from that at all?
>
> vvvvv
> > What more could a Zope guru want to persuade them to take a
> > look at the possibility of demonstrating how
> > much better that fits with Zope than with java or Tcl?
>
> Manpower. ;-)
> ^^^^^
>
> Well manpower is one of the major benefits you could get
> from taking that look.
>
> You've already got grassroots efforts doing "presentation"
> of ecommerce with Zope and there's no big problem doing
> the catalog side using ZODB (though an ORDBMS has
> advantages there too).
>
> But your core competency does not lie in ORDBMS SQL and
> neither does that of the grassroots Zope community.
> (Nor in the simpler matter of protocols communicating
> with payments gateways for that matter - wampum is
> still "pre-alpha" and there is nothing for any
> service except cybercash - which is in deep trouble).
>
> An entirely separate company has put major resources
> into an SQL data model that is freely available open source.
> That saves an awful lot of manpower, just as many
> companies using Zope have been saved a lot of manpower
> by the resources DC has put into it.
>
> An entirely separate open source community is right
> now putting major grass roots resources of highly
> skilled SQL programmers into porting the SQL so
> that data model can be used with *both* Oracle
> *and* Postgresql 7.1 and separating it entirely
> from the Tcl and java - mainly for convenience
> in doing that - but with the obvious consequence
> that it will be much easier to move it from the
> relatively clumsy web application framework
> they have got, to Zope. That saves an awful lot
> of manpower too.
>
> A third open source community has put major
> resources into turning postgresql 7.1 into
> an industrial strength RDBMS quite capable
> of replacing Oracle in many situations,
> which is also about to get python as a
> built in backend procedural language.
>
> That's not so much a savings in manpower
> as something that couldn't be done with
> any amount of manpower from DC, but is
> now available to DC.
>
> Now DC seems to have had to put quite
> a bit of resources into maintaining an
> Oracle adaptor for python, which I suspect
> is not entirely within your core competency.
>
> I would guess that there would be
> at least *some* contracts that DC depends
> on for revenue where the customer spends
> at least as much on Oracle licenses as
> they do on consulting, so you ought to be able
> to figure out that there exists at least
> a possibility worth investigating that
> being able to demonstrate that what they
> want works with Zope *both* on Oracle
> and on a free ORDBMS could result in
> some tangible monetary benefit to DC
> (even if they only have to buy
> *less* Oracle licenses with Zope/ZEO
> acting as an intermediary between
> postgresql backed web servers and
> Oracle stuff working with internal
> systems).
>
> I would also guess that there would
> be at least *some* contracts that
> DC has *not* gained because the
> reason the customer wants the
> sort of things Zope does provide
> is closely connected with also
> wanting to charge for various
> goods and services that go with
> it and they decide they would
> prefer to deal with consultants
> that have a better track record
> on ecommerce.
>
> I'm just guessing of course. Only
> DC can determine whether these,
> and/or other matters might
> result in tangible monetary
> benefit to DC.
>
> But the direct benefit to DC that I
> highlighted was the benefit that
> is also a direct benefit to the
> whole Zope community that I am
> more interested in.
>
> The more widely Zope is known
> and used the stronger it grows
> and the more consulting revenue
> DC gets, since people who can
> afford to pay for consultants
> are quite happy to do so, but
> like to have heard that what
> they want specially tailored
> is widely adopted and mainstream.
>
> ISPs already have web servers
> and don't need Zope for what
> they are currently doing
> (though if *they* had manpower
> to take a close look, which
> they generally don't, they'd
> see some good reasons for
> using Zope too).
>
> They also need to put in
> "commerce servers" and come
> up with some quite bizarre
> solutions using perl and
> MySQL or else have to pay through
> the nose.
>
> If Zope had an industrial
> strength turnkey commerce
> server it would be widely
> used by ISPs and would become
> "mainstream" like Apache -
> the Zope community would
> benefit greatly and DC's
> consulting revenue would
> grow greatly.
>
> Now how much do *I* get paid
> for trying to get DC to take
> a look?
>
> If you win this argument you
> aren't going to get any tangible
> monetary benefit for DC either.
>
> If somebody *does* take a look
> you just might. Think about it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Chris
> McDonough
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:25 AM
> To: Albert.Langer@Directory-Designs.org; 'Michael R. Bernstein'
> Cc: 'Mayers, Philip J'; zope@zope.org; zcommerce@codeit.com
> Subject: Re: [ZCommerce] RE: Philip leaves Arsdigita (was: Re: [Zope]
> kerberos ? + LDAP + ecommerce + ZEO replication etc)
>
> > Now back to the main story...
> >
> > ACS4 SQL is even using a Domain Object Model pattern with properly
> > OO separation of a meta-data knowledge layer from operational
> > layer in the RDBMS, with an access control system acquiring
> > permissions from context, sophisticated Party/Group/Roles
> > relationships that can express the whole UML concept of
> > associations and based on accountability patterns
> > from Fowler's "Analysis Patterns", a powerful petri net based
> > workflow engine etc etc. Arsdigita has stopped Tcl development
> > and moved to java.
> >
> > What more could a Zope guru want to persuade them to take a
> > look at the possibility of demonstrating how
> > much better that fits with Zope than with java or Tcl?
>
> Manpower. ;-)
>
> > Oh yes - one more thing - an important Open Source community that
> > has RDBMS skills somewhat lacking in the Zope Community,
> > currently faced with upheavals in Arsdigita and actively working
> > on a demonstrably viable escape route from Oracle and
> > welcoming lots of new involvement.
> >
> > Seems that isn't enough though. No sign of interest from DC.
>
> Lots of interest, not a lot of time. This is a great fishbowl idea and
> community development effort idea.
>
> > Anybody listening?
> >
> > See my original posting:
> > http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2001-March/086365.html
> >
> > Plain fact is that Zope *still* lacks an industrial strength
> > RDBMS based ecommerce system that could have a huge impact
> > in getting Zope widely deployed at ISPs, which is critical
> > to getting lots more interest. Postgresql is now
> > *fully* "industrial strength" (outer joins, better
> > performance than Oracle and a python procedural language
> > much better than Oracle java or PL/SQL just released).
> >
> > Right now when *lots* of people are getting involved in
> > OpenACS and are doing a port of ACS4 for *both* Oracle
> > and Postgresql 7.1 the opportunity is wide open for
> > getting real momentum behind adding the strengths of
> > the ACS RDBMS datamodel to the strengths of Zope. All
> > the SQL previously mixed in with Tcl cruft is just
> > sitting there waiting to be Zoped.
> >
> > The reasons for deferring it earlier ("it would take
> > at least a week to study" and "got to resolve API
> > documentation first") cannot possibly still apply.
> >
> > Everything else that could possibly be going well for
> > Zope is obviously going amazingly well, and will continue
> > to do so if somebody did spend a week or two on taking
> > a look. Yet this key aspect for getting wide deployment
> > is still being neglected.
> >
> > I haven't been hassling anybody about this for nearly a
> > year, so I guess it's time for some CCing.
> >
> > Sure hope somebody who can do something about it reads
> > the above link to previous posting concerning the
> > ACS4 developments - and the links within it and then
> > assigns some actual *resources*.
> >
> > On the first anniversary of having first pointed out
> > that a viable ecommerce package would not happen
> > without DC involvement and without checking out ACS,
> > I go on the war path. That's not far off ;-)
> >
> > You don't get turnkey ecommerce packages
> > without actual resources being put into a coordinated
> > effort. It's the coordination and serious interest
> > and commitment from DC that is lacking - there's no
> > lack of prototypes showing that Zope is a perfectly
> > suitable platform for the UI web side of ecommerce
> > as well as content management (when and only when
> > used together with an industrial strength RDBMS such
> > as postgresql - nobody in their right mind does
> > serious ecommerce without that). A project like
> > the CMF could get this done *fast*.
> >
> > BTW another recent posting not responded to re
> > Zope SSL support is pretty relevant to this as well:
> >
> > http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2001-April/086937.html
>
> I think the question that needs to be answered is "How does it immediately
> help DC to reimplement the ACS ecommerce module inside Zope?" The answer so
> far hasn't been compelling enough for a project to be created. That's not
> to say it won't become so in the future or that it's not a worthwhile
> effort. But DC has limited resources, and making a committment to port the
> ACS ecommerce module can't possibly be done without being able to see a
> tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company.
>
> OTOH, look at ZPatterns. DC literally had (and still has) nothing
> whatsoever to do with ZPatterns. However, lots of people use it, it's quite
> popular. I think the same could be done with a grassroots effort to get the
> ACS module moved to Zope. DC did provide help to Phillip and Ty in the way
> of implementing changes to Zope that made it easier for ZPatterns to do what
> it does, because we understand that it's a good long-term investment to do
> so. I think the relationship with DC and a group of folks who wanted to
> port ACS ecommerce to Zope would probably best follow the same pattern.
>
> I suggest that this project be fishbowled and those who are interested and
> who stand to gain the most benefit take up the mantle of actually
> implementing it.
>
> - C
>
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