[ZCommerce] RE: Philip leaves Arsdigita (was: Re: [Zope] kerberos ? + LDAP + ecommerce + ZEO replication etc)

Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:26:00 +1000

[Chris McDonough]
Please note that the email I sent does not count as an "official DC
response".  I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but I felt that
your plea deserved a response (I didn't want to see it slip through the
cracks) and it's the best I could do at the moment.  I haven't the
authority to make any sort of real decision regarding any DC involvement
in the porting of the openacs ecommerce package to Zope.

Here are the people that do:

  paul@digicool.com
  rob@digicool.com
  jim@digicool.com

I'm bowing out now, because any further commentary from me is just so
much hot air.

- C

[Albert]
Fair enough, address list amended accordingly ;-)

BTW providing a response rather than letting it slip through the
cracks was *exactly* the right thing to do.

Your straight forward response provided the necessary confirmation
that deciding what to do about these developments isn't currently
on the agenda among DC staffers and can therefore lead to that being
corrected if somebody does take a look at the links and decides
it does need to be corrected - whereas silence or a more
mealy mouthed response would have just let it slip through
the cracks.

Signing off for now, hoping for an "official" DC response, and
hoping it will *not* come immediately (though a reassuring note
would be nice ;-) but after enough time for somebody to have
taken a look.

Thanks.

Seeya, Albert

Albert Langer wrote:
>
> I agree with your suggestion that ecommerce based on OpenACS4
> should be "fishbowled" and will even count that as
> expressing "interest".
>
> However after nearly a year, and at this particular moment, it
> is nowhere near *enough* interest because of events that have
> just happened and are happening right now.
>
> I also agree that in asking DC to put some resources into it:
>
> '...the question that needs to be answered is "How does it immediately
> help DC to reimplement the ACS ecommerce module inside Zope?"  The answer
so
> far hasn't been compelling enough for a project to be created.'
>
> and that:
>
> 'DC has limited resources, and making a committment to port the
> ACS ecommerce module can't possibly be done without being able to see a
> tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company.'
>
> How *could* a compelling enough answer to that question for a
> project to be created be available if nobody from DC has
> actually studied the recent events to seek an answer?
>
> So who is to answer that question? A grassroots community effort?
> Why should we, if it so happens that we merely wish DC well and are
> very appreciative of DC having made possible the benefits of Zope
> for the things we *are* interested in, but do *not* have a focus
> on tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company?
>
> The only way *that* question can be answered is by DC staffers
> being assigned to take a look and answer it. It can't be answered
> by me having said that I've taken a very close look and concluded
> that DC would have the most to gain from getting it done quickly.
> Nor can it be answered by you off the top of your head.
>
> It can only be answered by someone from DC taking the time (I
> believe your estimate of a week, made nearly a year ago is
> reasonable), to checkout what's been happening with arsDigita
> and OpenACS very recently and thoroughly review both
> the ACS4 documentation and code and what interest DC might
> have in a solid turnkey ecommerce package and an escape route
> from Oracle in it's commercial contracts.
>
> It certainly can't be answered by waiting to see if someone
> *else* stands to gain enough from this job being done to
> take up the mantle of actually carrying it through.
>
> All I'm going to do is make suggestions. I'll certainly
> help if there *is* a fishbowl project, but I'm in no
> position to get one started. I doubt that *anyone* other
> than DC "stands to gain the most benefit".
>
> Likewise the various people who have been working on
> various Zope based ecommerce projects would be very
> likely to help but have shown no likelihood of being
> able to deliver what is needed to carry it through
> without some sort of coordinated effort sponsored by
> DC. You *don't* need to wait to see whether a
> grassroots effort is the solution. There has been one
> for more than a year in the zcommerce list and it
> very obviously is *not* the solution. Has DC gained
> any "tangible monetary benefit" from that at all?
>
> vvvvv
> > What more could a Zope guru want to persuade them to take a
> > look at the possibility of demonstrating how
> > much better that fits with Zope than with java or Tcl?
>
> Manpower.  ;-)
> ^^^^^
>
> Well manpower is one of the major benefits you could get
> from taking that look.
>
> You've already got grassroots efforts doing "presentation"
> of ecommerce with Zope and there's no big problem doing
> the catalog side using ZODB (though an ORDBMS has
> advantages there too).
>
> But your core competency does not lie in ORDBMS SQL and
> neither does that of the grassroots Zope community.
> (Nor in the simpler matter of protocols communicating
> with payments gateways for that matter - wampum is
> still "pre-alpha" and there is nothing for any
> service except cybercash - which is in deep trouble).
>
> An entirely separate company has put major resources
> into an SQL data model that is freely available open source.
> That saves an awful lot of manpower, just as many
> companies using Zope have been saved a lot of manpower
> by the resources DC has put into it.
>
> An entirely separate open source community is right
> now putting major grass roots resources of highly
> skilled SQL programmers into porting the SQL so
> that data model can be used with *both* Oracle
> *and* Postgresql 7.1 and separating it entirely
> from the Tcl and java - mainly for convenience
> in doing that - but with the obvious consequence
> that it will be much easier to move it from the
> relatively clumsy web application framework
> they have got, to Zope. That saves an awful lot
> of manpower too.
>
> A third open source community has put major
> resources into turning postgresql 7.1 into
> an industrial strength RDBMS quite capable
> of replacing Oracle in many situations,
> which is also about to get python as a
> built in backend procedural language.
>
> That's not so much a savings in manpower
> as something that couldn't be done with
> any amount of manpower from DC, but is
> now available to DC.
>
> Now DC seems to have had to put quite
> a bit of resources into maintaining an
> Oracle adaptor for python, which I suspect
> is not entirely within your core competency.
>
> I would guess that there would be
> at least *some* contracts that DC depends
> on for revenue where the customer spends
> at least as much on Oracle licenses as
> they do on consulting, so you ought to be able
> to figure out that there exists at least
> a possibility worth investigating that
> being able to demonstrate that what they
> want works with Zope *both* on Oracle
> and on a free ORDBMS could result in
> some tangible monetary benefit to DC
> (even if they only have to buy
> *less* Oracle licenses with Zope/ZEO
> acting as an intermediary between
> postgresql backed web servers and
> Oracle stuff working with internal
> systems).
>
> I would also guess that there would
> be at least *some* contracts that
> DC has *not* gained because the
> reason the customer wants the
> sort of things Zope does provide
> is closely connected with also
> wanting to charge for various
> goods and services that go with
> it and they decide they would
> prefer to deal with consultants
> that have a better track record
> on ecommerce.
>
> I'm just guessing of course. Only
> DC can determine whether these,
> and/or other matters might
> result in tangible monetary
> benefit to DC.
>
> But the direct benefit to DC that I
> highlighted was the benefit that
> is also a direct benefit to the
> whole Zope community that I am
> more interested in.
>
> The more widely Zope is known
> and used the stronger it grows
> and the more consulting revenue
> DC gets, since people who can
> afford to pay for consultants
> are quite happy to do so, but
> like to have heard that what
> they want specially tailored
> is widely adopted and mainstream.
>
> ISPs already have web servers
> and don't need Zope for what
> they are currently doing
> (though if *they* had manpower
> to take a close look, which
> they generally don't, they'd
> see some good reasons for
> using Zope too).
>
> They also need to put in
> "commerce servers" and come
> up with some quite bizarre
> solutions using perl and
> MySQL or else have to pay through
> the nose.
>
> If Zope had an industrial
> strength turnkey commerce
> server it would be widely
> used by ISPs and would become
> "mainstream" like Apache -
> the Zope community would
> benefit greatly and DC's
> consulting revenue would
> grow greatly.
>
> Now how much do *I* get paid
> for trying to get DC to take
> a look?
>
> If you win this argument you
> aren't going to get any tangible
> monetary benefit for DC either.
>
> If somebody *does* take a look
> you just might. Think about it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Chris
> McDonough
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:25 AM
> To: Albert.Langer@Directory-Designs.org; 'Michael R. Bernstein'
> Cc: 'Mayers, Philip J'; zope@zope.org; zcommerce@codeit.com
> Subject: Re: [ZCommerce] RE: Philip leaves Arsdigita (was: Re: [Zope]
> kerberos ? + LDAP + ecommerce + ZEO replication etc)
>
> > Now back to the main story...
> >
> > ACS4 SQL is even using a Domain Object Model pattern with properly
> > OO separation of a meta-data knowledge layer from operational
> > layer in the RDBMS, with an access control system acquiring
> > permissions from context, sophisticated Party/Group/Roles
> > relationships that can express the whole UML concept of
> > associations and based on accountability patterns
> > from Fowler's "Analysis Patterns", a powerful petri net based
> > workflow engine etc etc. Arsdigita has stopped Tcl development
> > and moved to java.
> >
> > What more could a Zope guru want to persuade them to take a
> > look at the possibility of demonstrating how
> > much better that fits with Zope than with java or Tcl?
>
> Manpower.  ;-)
>
> > Oh yes - one more thing - an important Open Source community that
> > has RDBMS skills somewhat lacking in the Zope Community,
> > currently faced with upheavals in Arsdigita and actively working
> > on a demonstrably viable escape route from Oracle and
> > welcoming lots of new involvement.
> >
> > Seems that isn't enough though. No sign of interest from DC.
>
> Lots of interest, not a lot of time.  This is a great fishbowl idea and
> community development effort idea.
>
> > Anybody listening?
> >
> > See my original posting:
> > http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2001-March/086365.html
> >
> > Plain fact is that Zope *still* lacks an industrial strength
> > RDBMS based ecommerce system that could have a huge impact
> > in getting Zope widely deployed at ISPs, which is critical
> > to getting lots more interest. Postgresql is now
> > *fully* "industrial strength" (outer joins, better
> > performance than Oracle and a python procedural language
> > much better than Oracle java or PL/SQL just released).
> >
> > Right now when *lots* of people are getting involved in
> > OpenACS and are doing a port of ACS4 for *both* Oracle
> > and Postgresql 7.1 the opportunity is wide open for
> > getting real momentum behind adding the strengths of
> > the ACS RDBMS datamodel to the strengths of Zope. All
> > the SQL previously mixed in with Tcl cruft is just
> > sitting there waiting to be Zoped.
> >
> > The reasons for deferring it earlier ("it would take
> > at least a week to study" and "got to resolve API
> > documentation first") cannot possibly still apply.
> >
> > Everything else that could possibly be going well for
> > Zope is obviously going amazingly well, and will continue
> > to do so if somebody did spend a week or two on taking
> > a look. Yet this key aspect for getting wide deployment
> > is still being neglected.
> >
> > I haven't been hassling anybody about this for nearly a
> > year, so I guess it's time for some CCing.
> >
> > Sure hope somebody who can do something about it reads
> > the above link to previous posting concerning the
> > ACS4 developments - and the links within it and then
> > assigns some actual *resources*.
> >
> > On the first anniversary of having first pointed out
> > that a viable ecommerce package would not happen
> > without DC involvement and without checking out ACS,
> > I go on the war path. That's not far off ;-)
> >
> > You don't get turnkey ecommerce packages
> > without actual resources being put into a coordinated
> > effort. It's the coordination and serious interest
> > and commitment from DC that is lacking - there's no
> > lack of prototypes showing that Zope is a perfectly
> > suitable platform for the UI web side of ecommerce
> > as well as content management (when and only when
> > used together with an industrial strength RDBMS such
> > as postgresql - nobody in their right mind does
> > serious ecommerce without that). A project like
> > the CMF could get this done *fast*.
> >
> > BTW another recent posting not responded to re
> > Zope SSL support is pretty relevant to this as well:
> >
> > http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2001-April/086937.html
>
> I think the question that needs to be answered is "How does it immediately
> help DC to reimplement the ACS ecommerce module inside Zope?"  The answer
so
> far hasn't been compelling enough for a project to be created.  That's not
> to say it won't become so in the future or that it's not a worthwhile
> effort.  But DC has limited resources, and making a committment to port
the
> ACS ecommerce module can't possibly be done without being able to see a
> tangible monetary benefit to DC as a company.
>
> OTOH, look at ZPatterns.  DC literally had (and still has) nothing
> whatsoever to do with ZPatterns.  However, lots of people use it, it's
quite
> popular.  I think the same could be done with a grassroots effort to get
the
> ACS module moved to Zope.  DC did provide help to Phillip and Ty in the
way
> of implementing changes to Zope that made it easier for ZPatterns to do
what
> it does, because we understand that it's a good long-term investment to do
> so.  I think the relationship with DC and a group of folks who wanted to
> port ACS ecommerce to Zope would probably best follow the same pattern.
>
> I suggest that this project be fishbowled and those who are interested and
> who stand to gain the most benefit take up the mantle of actually
> implementing it.
>
> - C
>
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