[Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)

[sean.upton@uniontrib.com]

With practical experience on multi-person teams with tech people and =
design
people with both DTML and ZPT, I can easily say this is just plain wr=
ong.
Document structure is best expressed and most portable in XML.  There=
 are
less unknown factors in XML because the rules are clear.  Coding XHTM=
L (or
even HTML) in ZPT scales better because there is less magic, and a cl=
earer
separation between code and design.  I know you can do almost as well=
 in
well-written DTML, but this leads to problems in the real world (read=
: hacks
that mess with this separation).

Also, ZPT can do non-HTML non-XML content fine, you just need to be c=
areful
about whitespace if that matters (as you do in dtml).  See Chris W's
argument here.

It's damn awful to try and have a designer/interface-developer try to
redesign a site that has interface code built in DTML.  It's especial=
ly
awful if you are the person that has to give them tech support and pr=
ay they
do not break the code by changing the presentation.  DTML just doesn'=
t scale
to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not
'programming.'=20

Sean

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: Terry Hancock [mailto:hancock@anansispaceworks.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:07 PM
To: zope@zope.org
Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)


On Monday 17 February 2003 09:01 am, Chris Withers wrote:
> Kevin Carlson wrote:
> >=A0Come on folks. =A0There's nothing wrong with supporting two tem=
plating=20
> >=A0languages. =A0Quite honestly, dtml is much easier to learn for =
most and=20
> >=A0has it's place in application development

DTML has worked pretty much flawlessly for me. I have *NEVER* encount=
ered
any=20
of the bugaboos about obfuscation or excessive code in it that have b=
een=20
claimed to be its faults. I use it in an admittedly complex presentat=
ion=20
layer, and it provides excellent support for everything I need to do =
there.=20
Python does the heavy lifting just fine, and I see no reason to chang=
e this=20
part of my design.

> ...not unless some of its major current flaws are corrected. I thin=
k this=20
is=20
> possible but I don't see the point of having two templating languag=
es for=20
one=20
> app server especially as we're now getting to the stage where you n=
eed to=20
know=20
> _both_ before you can do anything useful with Zope :-(

Okay, I'm game, let's give ZPT the boot. It's a much more specialized=
=20
language (HTML documents *only*), looks *really* obfuscated. Stuffs a=
ll its=20
code into HTML attributes which is great for hiding the code away, bu=
t awful

if you want to see the document structure.  DTML and Python work fine=
=20
together, and are capable of handling the whole range of tasks I need=
.=20
ZPT+Python cannot.=20

So ZPT is neither necessary nor sufficient.=20

Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

_______________________________________________
Zope maillist  -  Zope@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists -=20
 http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )