[Zope] Zope is a POS.

[Philip Kilner]

Hi Jason,

First of all, assuming I have decoded it correctly, let me take issue 
with your subject line - it's not a "POS".

Jason Leach wrote:
> Are any of these significant detriments with Zope addressed in 2.7 or later?
> 
> 0. No standard DB support.
> I don't think ZPoPyDa has been updated since 2001.  I'm sure that
> fills new developers with lots of confidence.  Perhaps it works fine,
> but it's not being improved.  Perhaps other DB interfaces are better. 

I've never used ZPoPyDa because I'm not a PostgreSQL user. However, I've 
done extensive work against Firebird using KInterbasDA and SQL Server 
using mxODBC Zope DA and am very happy with both.

My only criticism of the dB tools is that I'd like to see a free (as in 
beer) ODBC adapter - there is an ADO adapter, but I've not had cause to 
try it yet.

> But then again ZSQL Methods are still ancient and in DTML.
> 

I don't see the problem with DTML - it's v.useful in ZSQL methods, 
although I use ZPT for markup. I'm not sure what you mean by "ancient".

> 1. Build in user management.
> This is stupid.  The user management is good for companies of 10
> people or so but what good is that to web application or ecomm site? 
> You going to hand add users?  The only solid product for this is
> LDAPUserFolder, the rest should still be in beta.
> 

Well from my PoV, that's simply not true - I'm using SMB authentication 
against Windows, and it works fine.

What do you want to authenticate against?

> 2. Debugging.  
> This is worse.  It is so complicated to debug Products or Zope crap I
> can't believe it.  This is relative to PHP or JSP or ASP; all I have
> worked with.
> 

Again, I disagree. Admittedly my stuff is fairly simple, but I've 
recoiled in horror at the complexity and number of choices in JSP, and 
the general crumminess of ASP.

> 3. Python
> Keeping python up to date to use products.  Pain in the ass.
> 

You need the right version for what's running under it. I update my 
Python when I update my Zope, and use products that work with that 
combination of Zope and Python. Seems logical to me.

> 4. DTML/ZPT
> Seems 90% of Products are in DTML yet ZPT seems like the obvious thing
> to use. Fine, except when you need to tweak a product and then have to
> learn DTML. PHP is PHP same  for the most part with ASP (all VB if you
> like) or JSP (all java if you like).
> 

Well, ZPT made my head hurt for a long time - but it's very powerful. 
It's true that it's an issue that so much is still in DTML, but it's 
hardly a show stopper - take a look at Plone, which is all ZPT.

I'm not qualified to comment on PHP, but WRT ASP, that's not true any 
more either, is it? Unless your aversion to "ancient" lets ASP 2.0 under 
your radar and you have missed ThisWeeksBigThing.NET! ;-)

> Honestly. If I new know what I do about zope I would not recommend it
> for commercial development.  Go with a product that lots of people are
> using, this way you are ensured that components will be well supported
> and improved over time. Not dropped because the author has moved on.
> 

Well, I make a living doing commercial development with Zope and Plone, 
and whilst my RDBMS skills are good (most of my apps are web front ends 
for RDBMS applications) my Python/Zope/Plone skills are pretty primitive 
compared to many on this list. I've had to persevere a bit more than a 
Python coder would, but it has paid off in satisfaction.

Your comment about components does not stand up. This business moves 
fast, and many fall by the wayside, so it's important to be selective 
about your choice of components - but this would apply in any 
environment in this business.

I'm not sure if you're just venting, or if you want to address some of 
these issues. If the former, well you've done it. If the latter, you 
need to go into a bit more depth about what you want to accomplish in 
Zope and what you are comparing it to.

HTH


-- 

Regards,

PhilK

Email: phil at xfr.co.uk / Voicemail & Facsimile: 07092 070518

"Work as if you lived in the early days of a better nation." - Alasdair Gray