[***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.41/04.00] Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

Garito garito at sistes.net
Mon Jan 9 08:29:19 EST 2006


Jonathan escribió:

> To pour fuel on the flames...
>  
> +1 DTML
> -1 ZPT
>  
> Why...
>  
> 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML 
> does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, 
> reasonably robust and it works!
>  
> 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I 
> prefer a 'product' approach.
>  
> 3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach 
> using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side 
> python scripts/external methods/products.
>  
> ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really 
> bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and 
> environment).  Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content 
> from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce 
> of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of 
> approach.
>  
> I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to 
> learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction 
> with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development 
> should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the 
> future imho :-)
>  
> If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML 
> and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' 
> bin).  Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist 
> which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, 
> in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.
>  
> Just my 1-1/2 cents.
>  
>  
> Jonathan
>  
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Greg Fischer <mailto:retheoff at gmail.com>
>     *Cc:* zope at zope.org <mailto:zope at zope.org>
>     *Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
>
>     Yes, we need hype!  And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. 
>
>     Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple
>     graphics and data/object access without page reloads.  (like I am
>     using with Dojo right now)  What does Zope not provide these
>     features "built-in"?
>
>     And yes, about the central docs.  A ton of info is available right
>     on Zope.org <http://Zope.org>, but I always find more on
>     individual blogs or other google searches.  Zope.org
>     <http://Zope.org>could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. 
>     Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg?  Diggs on just Zope articles and
>     such, with comments?  That would be hot!  Better and easier than a
>     wiki, IMHO.  The one thing I would say is, from my perspective,
>     when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post
>     on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo
>     or maybe include things *my* way.  Having a ZopeDigg would allow
>     us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little
>     flashy too.
>
>     The video tutorial should be made.  Like RoR and Symfony-project
>     have.  It shows beginners how easy something is to do.  And they
>     will download it.  I did. 
>
>     Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope
>     needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW!  99% of you hate it.  But every
>     time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up.  It's very
>     simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action.  ZPT is
>     just plain confusing to me.  I hate to say this too, but I am
>     doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that
>     there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community.  And
>     even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there
>     is no hype about it, then it might.  And I don't want to keep
>     using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many
>     disadvantages, but it also has many advantages.  I wish there were
>     more hype about it. 
>
>     So, here's a big "wish" of mine too.  What if Zope was a
>     *complete* framework, including a web based IDE?  I dont mean the
>     ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE,
>     built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It
>     would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql,
>     Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase
>     and configure a database adapter.  This would provide a web based,
>     development framework like .NET using Visual Studio.  Only this
>     would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! 
>     It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form
>     editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be
>     great.  I think we would have a KILLER APP!
>
>     Well, maybe I am dreamin?  Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
>
>     Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft
>     surveys say a lot.  I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's
>     great info.  Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using
>     Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000.  Cool!
>
>     42000+ Sites in 2006
>     http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/
>
>     6000+ Sites  in 2002
>     http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/
>     <http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/>
>
>
>
>     Happy new year everyone!
>
>
>
>     On 1/3/06, *Jonathan Cyr* <cyrj at cyr.info <mailto:cyrj at cyr.info>>
>     wrote:
>
>         Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking?  Is
>         there even a problem?   Is Python growing or shrinking?  Is
>         there any connection?
>
>         Zope.org <http://Zope.org> seems to have been built as a
>         community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc.  Is it
>         working.  RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.
>
>         Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in
>         order, that provides a very small amount of "get started"
>         information.
>
>         Two Cents,
>
>         -Jon
>
>         Gert Thiel wrote:
>
>>Dear friends.
>>
>>A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
>>At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
>>terms of attention and recognized widespread.
>>
>>
>>Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
>>speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
>>shortcommings of J2EE.
>>
>>Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
>>
>>and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
>>
>>Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at 
>>zope.org <http://zope.org>.
>>Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
>>a look at rubyonrails.org
>> <http://rubyonrails.org> and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
>>look at zope.org <http://zope.org> ‹ where isŠ You got it.
>>
>>To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
>>
>>Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
>>power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
>>the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
>>
>>hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
>>
>>Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
>>
>>Make them love Zope at the very first look:
>>
>>    * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
>>
>>    * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
>>      including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
>>      of success.
>>
>>Bribe the managers:
>>
>>    * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
>>
>>    * Include powerful XML processing facilities and
>>    * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
>>
>>Enable the beginners:
>>
>>    * Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
>>
>>      documentation is a must.
>>    * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
>>      mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
>>      one central location.
>>
>>
>>Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
>>framework but from its community.
>>
>>And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>  Gert
>>
>>
>>http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Zope maillist  -  Zope at zope.org <mailto:Zope at zope.org>
>>http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
>>**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
>>(Related lists - 
>> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>>
>>  
>>
>
>-- 
>Jonathan Cyr
>http://www.cyr.info
>http://www.weddingweblog.com
>cyrj at cyr.info <mailto:cyrj at cyr.info>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Zope maillist  -  Zope at zope.org <mailto:Zope at zope.org>
>         http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
>         **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
>         (Related lists -
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>         <http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev>)
>
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Greg Fischer
>     1st Byte Solutions
>     http://www.1stbyte.com
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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>  
>
Well, I don't use DTML for anything

I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday but forget these words 
because there are DTML and ZClasses fans on the list

Sorry!

-- 
Mis Cosas
http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito/




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