[***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.41/04.00] Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory
tower now!
Garito
garito at sistes.net
Mon Jan 9 08:29:19 EST 2006
Jonathan escribió:
> To pour fuel on the flames...
>
> +1 DTML
> -1 ZPT
>
> Why...
>
> 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML
> does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy,
> reasonably robust and it works!
>
> 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I
> prefer a 'product' approach.
>
> 3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach
> using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side
> python scripts/external methods/products.
>
> ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really
> bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and
> environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content
> from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce
> of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of
> approach.
>
> I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to
> learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction
> with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development
> should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the
> future imho :-)
>
> If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML
> and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time'
> bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist
> which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible,
> in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.
>
> Just my 1-1/2 cents.
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Greg Fischer <mailto:retheoff at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* zope at zope.org <mailto:zope at zope.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
>
> Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.
>
> Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple
> graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am
> using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these
> features "built-in"?
>
> And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right
> on Zope.org <http://Zope.org>, but I always find more on
> individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org
> <http://Zope.org>could use a more intuitive help finder maybe.
> Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and
> such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a
> wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective,
> when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post
> on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo
> or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow
> us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little
> flashy too.
>
> The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project
> have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they
> will download it. I did.
>
> Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope
> needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every
> time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very
> simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is
> just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am
> doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that
> there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And
> even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there
> is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep
> using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many
> disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were
> more hype about it.
>
> So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a
> *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the
> ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE,
> built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It
> would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql,
> Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase
> and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based,
> development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this
> would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows!
> It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form
> editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be
> great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!
>
> Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
>
> Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft
> surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's
> great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using
> Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool!
>
> 42000+ Sites in 2006
> http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/
>
> 6000+ Sites in 2002
> http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/
> <http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/>
>
>
>
> Happy new year everyone!
>
>
>
> On 1/3/06, *Jonathan Cyr* <cyrj at cyr.info <mailto:cyrj at cyr.info>>
> wrote:
>
> Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is
> there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is
> there any connection?
>
> Zope.org <http://Zope.org> seems to have been built as a
> community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it
> working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.
>
> Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in
> order, that provides a very small amount of "get started"
> information.
>
> Two Cents,
>
> -Jon
>
> Gert Thiel wrote:
>
>>Dear friends.
>>
>>A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
>>At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
>>terms of attention and recognized widespread.
>>
>>
>>Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
>>speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
>>shortcommings of J2EE.
>>
>>Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
>>
>>and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
>>
>>Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at
>>zope.org <http://zope.org>.
>>Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
>>a look at rubyonrails.org
>> <http://rubyonrails.org> and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
>>look at zope.org <http://zope.org> ‹ where isŠ You got it.
>>
>>To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
>>
>>Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
>>power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
>>the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
>>
>>hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
>>
>>Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
>>
>>Make them love Zope at the very first look:
>>
>> * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
>>
>> * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
>> including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
>> of success.
>>
>>Bribe the managers:
>>
>> * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
>>
>> * Include powerful XML processing facilities and
>> * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
>>
>>Enable the beginners:
>>
>> * Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
>>
>> documentation is a must.
>> * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
>> mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
>> one central location.
>>
>>
>>Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
>>framework but from its community.
>>
>>And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>> Gert
>>
>>
>>http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Zope maillist - Zope at zope.org <mailto:Zope at zope.org>
>>http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
>>** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
>>(Related lists -
>> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Jonathan Cyr
>http://www.cyr.info
>http://www.weddingweblog.com
>cyrj at cyr.info <mailto:cyrj at cyr.info>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope at zope.org <mailto:Zope at zope.org>
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> <http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev>)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Greg Fischer
> 1st Byte Solutions
> http://www.1stbyte.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
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>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
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>http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
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>
>
Well, I don't use DTML for anything
I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday but forget these words
because there are DTML and ZClasses fans on the list
Sorry!
--
Mis Cosas
http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito/
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