[Zope] Zope Alternative

[Perry Smith]

On Nov 12, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Hafeliel wrote:

> --- Andrew Milton <akm at theinternet.com.au> wrote:
>
> grumpy = getattr(container, "grumpy.jpg")
>
> The edit view of grumpy.jpg shows me the Last Modified
> time

I bet you are getting the last modified date from the image.  The  
image has attributes inside of it.

Are you saying that you can not track down where the python code is  
getting the attribute from the image?


> Now I try to investigate it by poking around in
> Python.  I write some code to look at any properties
> that might have been saved for me, but not documented:

I don't understand... When I track stuff down, I look at the code.   
Thats part of the beauty of open source.  You have the source right  
there to look at.

Also... I don't watch this email with an eagle eye, but why haven't  
you just asked?  These guys are terrific at answering questions and  
pointers.  Watch:

What module should I look at to help track down where the attributes  
of an image are coming from?

> 2] A user wants to buy a print of an image in the
> gallery.  He's a new user, so I get account
> information and add it to my user list.  Now I want to
> log him in from a visually appealing web form.  I know
> this is possible, because I've seen other applications
> do this.
>
> However, I can't find any mention of this in the docs.

I slightly agree here but only slightly.  Weitershausen's book gives  
a complete A-Z example of a web site including the login page, user  
management, etc.  And Weitershausen frequents this list.

>> so you want to replace it with something that does
>> the same thing, just in a way you understand it.
>
> Basically, yes.  I want a tool that doesn't try to
> protect me.

I think, actually, you do.  The world of hackers causes web  
development to require a lot of security.  Zope's, the tiny bit I've  
used, seems very flexible.

> Please don't be mean.  I've been a programmer since
> 1979.  I've done a lot of things in this last 27
> years.  If I can't make a tool dance and sing within
> two years of picking it up, then the chances are that
> the tool itself isn't measuring up.

I use the exact same logic.  "I've a smart guy; I've been swinging in  
the wind forever; If I can't make it work, its the tools fault."

But, that logic is simply wrong.

In my case, I have not done web development "forever".  If I had, I  
would not have as many problems with Zope as I do and I would  
understand how, what, when, where much better.  I get really  
frustrated... But I take a step back.  In my case, I am frustrated  
not with Zope but with my expectations of what I should be able to do.

>> The fact of the matter is, PHP and friends have
>> greater market penetration, because "people" want to
>> do things the 'easy' way.
>
> Exactly.  The whole point of a tool is to make it easy
> to get from point A to point B.  PHP presumes that the
> code is to be trusted and doesn't stand in the way.
> Zope presumes that the code is suspect and is
> desperate to keep me from getting to point B.  The end
> result is that I end up not using what Zope can do
> because I do not want to deal with the roadblocks it
> puts up.
>
>> That is mixing presentation and logic all in some
>> horrid markup. Engineers appreciate the way it
>> separates these things, and makes it hard(er) to
>> have ugly templates. PHP "programmers" are a dime a
>> dozen for a reason, "anyone" can do it.
>
> No offence, but that sounds like a statement from an
> ivory tower.  I want a good separation of code and
> template.  However, I don't see why I should have to
> suffer to get this.
>
>> Zope is a different beast, if you don't have good
>> engineering habits, you're not going to get very far
>> using Zope.
>
> I think you have far too much faith in Zope as it
> currently stands.  Incomplete documentation is the
> norm for OSS, but in most cases, this isn't such a big
> deal.  Most products don't try to protect you, so you
> can easily find out the name of a function that
> someone forgot to document.

I would not do a major project with PHP.  Zope, Vignette, what is  
IBM's tool called? WorldSomethingOrOther --- they exist for a reason.

Why use C++?  Why use Python?  Why not just stick with BASIC?   
Everyone can write BASIC code, remember?

The same reasoning applies here.  BASIC utterly breaks down as  
projects grow.

Also, I would argue that PHP is where its at today due to age and the  
time of introduction.  Just like Windows or QuickBooks.  If they were  
introduced today, they would utterly fail.  But their miserable  
performance is tolerated today because they are intrenched.  (That is  
not to say that I think PHP is bad -- only that the time something is  
introduced plays a huge role in how fast it spreads.)

Also -- take a look at Zope 3.  I've used it more than Zope 2 which  
seem to be what you have tried.  I find it really great.

Good luck and take care,
Perry Smith
Ease Software, Inc.
pedz at easesoftware.com
http://www.easesoftware.com

Low cost SATA Products for IBMs p5, pSeries, and RS/6000 AIX systems



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