[Zope] zope vs. siteserver from ms.siteserver newsgroup

[Chris McDonough]

Here's an exchange I had with a guy in the MS Site Server general Usenet
Newsgroup... can anyone find exception with his or my arguments?
Additionally, he doubts the ability of Zope to handle large sites (near the
end of the message).  Any clarifications are appreciated....

I wrote:

Thanks for your comments!

In article <74D4DC853648D311823F00E018900AD5309923@MAIL-BLN.maghan.com>,
  Thomas Tomiczek <t.tomiczek@maghan.com> wrote:
> Hm - you gie scalability a tie. I think, MS is the winner here.
> 

No, actually, it was stability... I didn't compare the two for scalability.
Its an undertaking I didnt have time for.

> SiteServer uses ASP for development, but you can also use other stuff
> (ISAPI Extensions, for example). The paradigm is to put mot or all of
> the more complex logic into COM-objects, which most ot the time are
> compiled natively.
> 
> On the opposite, ZOPE is interpreted, not only the templates, even the
> server itself. No paradigm like COM is part of the game (though it might
> be extended). So ZOPE will be less speedy.

I might take exception with this.  ASP itself is interpreted (obviously),
and isn't the speediest interpreted scripting framework in the world... a
recent benchmark of a "hello world" program in ASP/VBScript on IIS pumped
out an underwhelming 9.53 req/sec.  Please see
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:41196118&dq=cache:www.bitmechanic.com/m
ail-archives/modperl/current/0151.html for an explanation.  There are no
hard numbers on Zope, but ASP/VBScript is not a particularly well-performing
web application development language as compared to PHP or mod_perl or other
alternatives.  As most of your presentation logic will be placed in ASP, it
will be your bottleneck.  It won't really matter that your COM logic is fast
as hell.  Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the argument.

Additionally, not all of Zope is written in Python.  Key pieces of it are
written in C for speed.   And when you say "no paradigm like COM is part of
the game", you should also know that Zope is completely object-oriented,
whereas the ASP/Site Server combination is a mix of mostly procedural
structures with some object oriented components (COM objects) thrown in.  I
don't know if you're criticizing design or function here...

> 
> Also: I really doubt the scalability of the ZOPE Object database,
> compared to the SQL Server that is part of the site server licensing.
> The ZOPE Object database - well - there are no benchmarks on it.

Agreed.

> 
> First Part:
> App Development:
> You are not really good with statements like "Additionally, the process
> of "decoding" some of Microsoft's Site Server-related error messages is
> tedious (e.g. "Server Object error ASP 0177:800401f3 Server.CreateObject
> failed, line 37, invalid class string")." - Sorry, THIS error message
> explains itself quite well.

Maybe you can tell me what it means in the context of the failure... it
happens in the cmsample application that comes with Site Server.

> 
> "When you do this, you're basically extending the Zope environment by
> creating your own object types without having to know a high-level
> programming language (ala C++/Visual Basic COM object development)." -
> well, just you do it in a slow interpredet language, where C++ COM
> Objects will be speedy!

Hmmm.  I don't know C++.  This was my point.  With Zope, I don't have to
know C++ or even VB to develop object components.  I just need to know how
to point and click, plus I need to know a little bit of DTML (Document
Template Markup Language).

> 
> "The power of this model is formidable.  For example, I developed a
> "news item" object in 22 minutes which allows my users to add "news
> items" to their department for perusal by other department members." -
> nive. What about adding 100.000 news items. What is the performance
> then? This is unrealistic? OK, lets make an interface for a news server.
> 1 million messages a day. Youre dead.

Agreed.  There isn't enough data.  Does anyone in here run a Site Server
based site that handles this kind of traffic?  It'd be interesting to see
what sort of hardware is required...

> 
> I really do not want to critisize you - it is only, that your statements
> are NOT backed up. I was also looking at ZOPE, and in my eyes - nice
> try. I still have to see a website working with it. A real site, say 10
> million pages a day, all dynamic. Make a setup of Zope in a cluster with
> shared session. It can be done in site server.

I will forward your message to the Zope list to see if anyone can attest to
running such a site....

Many, many thanks for all your comments!!

> 
> Thomas Tomiczek
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris McDonough [mailto:mcdonc@iqgroup.com]
> Posted At: Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 1999 00:54
> Posted To: general
> Conversation: Site Server vs. Zope...
> Subject: Site Server vs. Zope...
> 
> I've come up with a very basic Site Server vs. Zope (an open-source
> application server) comparison from the perspective of using the
> packages to develop Intranet sites... I'd be pleased if anyone could
> correct or comment on the analysis.
> 
> The comparison is at http://sharon.iqgroup.com/zopevssiteserver.html
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> Chris
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
> 
>