[Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

Jonathan dev101 at magma.ca
Sun Jan 8 19:02:24 EST 2006 

To pour fuel on the flames...

+1 DTML
-1 ZPT

Why...

1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works!

2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.

3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products.

ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment).  Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach.

I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-)

If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin).  Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.

Just my 1-1/2 cents.


Jonathan

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Greg Fischer 
  Cc: zope at zope.org 
  Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!


  Yes, we need hype!  And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.  

  Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads.  (like I am using with Dojo right now)  What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"? 

  And yes, about the central docs.  A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches.  Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe.  Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg?  Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments?  That would be hot!  Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO.  The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way.  Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. 

  The video tutorial should be made.  Like RoR and Symfony-project have.  It shows beginners how easy something is to do.  And they will download it.  I did.  

  Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW!  99% of you hate it.  But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up.  It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action.  ZPT is just plain confusing to me.  I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community.  And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might.  And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages.  I wish there were more hype about it.  

  So, here's a big "wish" of mine too.  What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE?  I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter.  This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio.  Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows!  It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great.  I think we would have a KILLER APP! 

  Well, maybe I am dreamin?  Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

  Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot.  I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info.  Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000.  Cool! 

  42000+ Sites in 2006
  http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/

  6000+ Sites  in 2002
  http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ 



  Happy new year everyone!




  On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr <cyrj at cyr.info> wrote:
    Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking?  Is there even a problem?   Is Python growing or shrinking?  Is there any connection? 

    Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc.  Is it working.  RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.

    Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information.

    Two Cents,

    -Jon


    Gert Thiel wrote: 
Dear friends.A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind interms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyonespeaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about theshortcommings of J2EE.Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at 
zope.org.Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Havea look at rubyonrails.org
 and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have anylook at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel itspower before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls atthe very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:Make them love Zope at the very first look:    * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
    * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application      including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling      of success.Bribe the managers:    * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
    * Include powerful XML processing facilities and    * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.Enable the beginners:    * Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
      documentation is a must.    * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,      mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at      one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or theframework but from its community.And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.Regards,  Gert
http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/


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-- Jonathan Cyrhttp://www.cyr.info
http://www.weddingweblog.com
cyrj at cyr.info
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  -- 
  Greg Fischer
  1st Byte Solutions
  http://www.1stbyte.com 


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