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OSES project - should it run under Zope?
by cg＠cdegroot.com 12 Jul '99

12 Jul '99

Hi all, I was off this list for the last half year or so, so I'm in for some catching up :-). In the meantime, a couple of quick questions: I'm starting up a new project, Open Source Educational Software (www.oses.org for more details). Basically, I want to get people from various disciplines (teachers, pedagogues, graphics artists, programmers) together to work on classroom-software. The site must be highly collaborative, and friendly to non-technical users. Software will be mostly written in Java, so it can run on any box with a browser. Q1: is Zope the best environment to do this on? On the collaboration part, Zope's user features are great, and Confera is ok as well, but other things are lacking (chat, public file repositories, interfaces to CVS maybe, talkback areas at the bottom of most pages, etcetera). Q2: call me crazy, but I think that WikiWikiWeb is a great collaboration tool (http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki) There is a Python version, but I'd like to have this running inside Zope so you can apply Zope's management features to it. I talked to the author, he's interested, but maybe this alread has been done? Q3: if the answer on Q1 is "yes", are there any Zope gurus out there who want to help me on structuring the site, maybe writing some of the utilities that are missing? One of the reasons for picking Zope is that I'm considering making the add-ons for collaboration available as part of the project, so that schools can run Zope (Zope fits the OSES requirements for platform independence, that's a very big benefit). Q4: (this should be an easy one - maybe I've missed a FAQ somewhere?) What's the easiest way to have "last modified ... by ..." on the bottom of each page? Thanks in advance, Cees -- Cees de Groot http://www.cdegroot.com <cg(a)cdegroot.com>

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Re: [Zope] OSES project - should it run under Zope?
by Kevin Dangoor 12 Jul '99

12 Jul '99

Hi, --- Cees de Groot <cg(a)cdegroot.com> wrote: > I was off this list for the last half year or so, so > I'm in for some catching > up :-). I think a lot has been happening in that time :) [deletia] > Q1: is Zope the best environment to do this on? On > the collaboration part, > Zope's user features are great, and Confera is ok as > well, but other things > are lacking (chat, public file repositories, > interfaces to CVS maybe, talkback > areas at the bottom of most pages, etcetera). I think Zope offers many, many useful things for collaboration. The Zope Portal Toolkit fills in some gaps to make it a fabulous tool. In general, I think the ZClasses and Catalog features (both in alpha) make "rolling your own" very easy. And, you can reuse the components you create very easily. Specifically: chat: there are lots of chat solutions out there. I'm not sure if a Zope-based chat system would offer much value. file repositories: check in the Zope email archives (available on egroups or in the community section of the Zope site) for a message from Paul Everitt just a couple of days ago. He wrote about the things that DC is planning to do in this area. I think a file repository is the type of thing that ZClasses and Catalog make easy to create a custom version that does just what you want. CVS interfaces: depending on your needs, you may be able to whip this up with some External Methods... talkback at the bottom of the page: One way you can do this is by having something in your standard_html_footer template with a link to a Confera topic... My feeling, in general, is that there may be a slew of applications that are not pre-built with Zope. *But*, they're pretty easy to build in Zope today and will be even easy with ZClasses and Catalog once those are in their final form. [wiki stuff deleted... I don't know anything about this.] > Q3: if the answer on Q1 is "yes", are there any Zope > gurus out there who want > to help me on structuring the site, maybe writing > some of the utilities that > are missing? One of the reasons for picking Zope is > that I'm considering > making the add-ons for collaboration available as > part of the project, so that > schools can run Zope (Zope fits the OSES > requirements for platform > independence, that's a very big benefit). I think there will an increase in contributed Zope Products once everyone has deployed Zope2. And anything you (and others) build for your project will be really easy to package up and distribute to any schools that want to use it. > Q4: (this should be an easy one - maybe I've missed > a FAQ somewhere?) What's > the easiest way to have "last modified ... by ..." > on the bottom of each page? I think  will get you the time of modification. I don't know about the 'who' modified part... Kevin _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [Zope] ZCatalog in a ZClass
by michel＠digicool.com 12 Jul '99

12 Jul '99

Kevin Dangoor <kid(a)kendermedia.com> writes: > I'm starting work on my first ZClasses. I have news story code that > I am using at http://www.byproducts.com. I am changing it from a system > using DTML Methods in various Folders, TinyTables and such into > something that is designed with ZClasses and ZCatalog. > > I want to make sure I understand this correctly: > > - I am creating an ArticleStorage Product & ZClass that is designed to > contain and manage Article(s) (another ZClass) > > - If I were to put a ZCatalog inside the ArticleStorage ZClass, that > catalog would contain the information from *all* ArticleStorage > instances Nope. It would define that all instances of that ZClass would instanciate a ZCatalog. Until the ZClass is instanciated, no ZCatalogs are intanciated. > > - Or, if I have the add method of ArticleStorage create the ZCatalog, > then the catalog would index only that given instance's Articles. Yep. Note that it is possible for ArticleStorage to also subclass ZCatalog. > > From a design standpoint, does it make more sense to have the catalog > acquired from somewhere outside the ArticleStorage? That way, if there > is information in the ArticleStorage and information in other places, > they can all be conveniently searched via one catalog. > This is a good design decision, and is how we are currently using ZCatalog. It is entirely valid however that your requirements may lean toward the other architecture. > The reason I was thinking of putting the catalog inside of the > ArticleStorage is because there are specific things that need to be > indexed within the articles for this to work (eg "Category") > Note that in your ZCatalog, you can define a whole bunch of attributes for the Catalog to index, including 'Catagory'. If the Catalog finds an object (or is told to index an object) that does not have that attribute, it will politely ignore that fact, continuing to index any attributes that the object does have that it's looking for. This way, only objects that have a 'Catagory' attribute are subject to a search based on that attribute. It is also handy to index meta_type for these reasons (which ZCatalog does by default) so that you can hardwire a particular search to just return objects of a certain type, meaning that if you had to different object types that defined Catagory, you could pick between them in your results. Also, a tip to *all* ZClass developers... try to make sure your metatypes are unique. It would be very tempting in your case to give your Article objects the meta_type 'Article' but it might be a good idea to uniqufy them with some sort of prefix, such as the application name. For example, if you had a Product named 'ABook' which contain a ZClass named 'ABook' whose instances could in turn contain instances of the class 'ZBookChapter' instead of 'Chapter'. This is because meta_types are global. -Michel > Opinions? > > Thanks, > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

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Re: [Zope] OSES project - should it run under Zope?
by michel＠digicool.com 12 Jul '99

12 Jul '99

Kevin Dangoor <tazzzzz(a)yahoo.com> writes: > --- Cees de Groot <cg(a)cdegroot.com> wrote: > > Q5: should I start development on the new 2.0 stuff? > > I want the site to be > > launched in around a month. > > IMHO, yes. If you design your app for 1.10.3, you'll > be missing out on a lot of the design advantages of > ZClasses and Catalog. I built my Phase I website (at > http://www.byproducts.com) on 1.10.2 and am now > re-tooling it in Zope 2 to take advantage of these > advances and make the design cleaner... > I agree with your reasons for using 2.0.0, however I'd like to play a bit of devil's advocate and mention that it is still alpha, you will probably run into bugs that will take time to resolve, and a certain level of expertise may be needed above and beyond what is needed for 1.10.3. Other than those minor reasons, 2.0.0 is the future of Zope, and it looks very bright. -Michel > Kevin > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

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ZCatalog in a ZClass
by Kevin Dangoor 12 Jul '99

12 Jul '99

I'm starting work on my first ZClasses. I have news story code that I am using at http://www.byproducts.com. I am changing it from a system using DTML Methods in various Folders, TinyTables and such into something that is designed with ZClasses and ZCatalog. I want to make sure I understand this correctly: - I am creating an ArticleStorage Product & ZClass that is designed to contain and manage Article(s) (another ZClass) - If I were to put a ZCatalog inside the ArticleStorage ZClass, that catalog would contain the information from *all* ArticleStorage instances - Or, if I have the add method of ArticleStorage create the ZCatalog, then the catalog would index only that given instance's Articles. Is that correct? >From a design standpoint, does it make more sense to have the catalog acquired from somewhere outside the ArticleStorage? That way, if there is information in the ArticleStorage and information in other places, they can all be conveniently searched via one catalog. The reason I was thinking of putting the catalog inside of the ArticleStorage is because there are specific things that need to be indexed within the articles for this to work (eg "Category") Opinions? Thanks, Kevin

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passing multiple parameters on one line
by Graham Chiu 12 Jul '99

12 Jul '99

I have a Zsql search query that takes a variable number of parameters. At the moment, I have a form with multiple input fields. Is there a dtml way of just using one input field to hold all the parameters, and splitting them up using whitespace as the delimiter? ------- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiu<at>compkarori.co.nz

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Re: [Zope] OSES project - should it run under Zope?
by Kevin Dangoor 11 Jul '99

11 Jul '99

--- Cees de Groot <cg(a)cdegroot.com> wrote: > Q5: should I start development on the new 2.0 stuff? > I want the site to be > launched in around a month. IMHO, yes. If you design your app for 1.10.3, you'll be missing out on a lot of the design advantages of ZClasses and Catalog. I built my Phase I website (at http://www.byproducts.com) on 1.10.2 and am now re-tooling it in Zope 2 to take advantage of these advances and make the design cleaner... Kevin _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [Zope] Problem refering to a subfolder object
by Kam Cheung 11 Jul '99

11 Jul '99

> Something like this also works:: > >  > <img src="images/global/"> >  > <img src="images/global/default"> >  It works! But I found out another problem, I got an "You are not authorized to access images. " error when viewing the page as an anonymous user. Actually, even the  method gave me the same error (I didn't check it as an anonymous user when I used it). Here is the rewrite log that I got: 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) init rewrite engine with requested uri /Zope/ 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (3) applying pattern '^/Zope(.*)' to uri '/Zope/' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (4) RewriteCond: input='' pattern='^(.*)' => matched 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) rewrite /Zope/ -> /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (5) setting env variable 'HTTP_CGI_AUTHORIZATION' to '' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) remember /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ to have MIME-type 'application/x-httpd-cgi' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) local path result: /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (1) go-ahead with /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ [OK] 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (1) force filename /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi to have MIME-type 'application/x-httpd-cgi' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#8093f94/subreq] (2) init rewrite engine with requested uri / 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#8093f94/subreq] (3) applying pattern '^/Zope(.*)' to uri '/' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#8093f94/subreq] (1) pass through / 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) init rewrite engine with requested uri /Zope/ 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (3) applying pattern '^/Zope(.*)' to uri '/Zope/' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (4) RewriteCond: input='' pattern='^(.*)' => matched 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) rewrite /Zope/ -> /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (5) setting env variable 'HTTP_CGI_AUTHORIZATION' to '' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) remember /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ to have MIME-type 'application/x-httpd-cgi' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (2) local path result: /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (1) go-ahead with /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi/ [OK] 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#80919e4/initial] (1) force filename /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi to have MIME-type 'application/x-httpd-cgi' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#8093f94/subreq] (2) init rewrite engine with requested uri / 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#8093f94/subreq] (3) applying pattern '^/Zope(.*)' to uri '/' 216.46.86.13 - - [10/Jul/1999:11:25:14 -0400] [mars.littlecircle.com/sid#80774ac] [rid#8093f94/subreq] (1) pass through / I think that may have something to do with my httpd.conf, but I am not sure. This is my httpd.conf: ServerType standalone ServerName mars.littlecircle.com PidFile logs/zap.pid ScoreBoardFile logs/zap.scoreboard Timeout 300 KeepAlive On MaxKeepAliveRequests 100 KeepAliveTimeout 15 MinSpareServers 5 MaxSpareServers 10 StartServers 5 MaxClients 150 MaxRequestsPerChild 30 User nobody Group nobody ServerAdmin kcheung(a)littlecircle.com ServerRoot /etc/httpd LoadModule env_module modules/mod_env.so LoadModule config_log_module modules/mod_log_config.so LoadModule mime_module modules/mod_mime.so LoadModule negotiation_module modules/mod_negotiation.so LoadModule status_module modules/mod_status.so LoadModule includes_module modules/mod_include.so LoadModule autoindex_module modules/mod_autoindex.so LoadModule dir_module modules/mod_dir.so LoadModule cgi_module modules/mod_cgi.so LoadModule asis_module modules/mod_asis.so LoadModule imap_module modules/mod_imap.so LoadModule action_module modules/mod_actions.so LoadModule userdir_module modules/mod_userdir.so LoadModule proxy_module modules/libproxy.so LoadModule alias_module modules/mod_alias.so LoadModule rewrite_module modules/mod_rewrite.so LoadModule access_module modules/mod_access.so LoadModule auth_module modules/mod_auth.so LoadModule setenvif_module modules/mod_setenvif.so ClearModuleList AddModule mod_env.c AddModule mod_log_config.c AddModule mod_mime.c AddModule mod_negotiation.c AddModule mod_status.c AddModule mod_include.c AddModule mod_autoindex.c AddModule mod_dir.c AddModule mod_cgi.c AddModule mod_asis.c AddModule mod_imap.c AddModule mod_actions.c AddModule mod_userdir.c AddModule mod_proxy.c AddModule mod_alias.c AddModule mod_rewrite.c AddModule mod_access.c AddModule mod_auth.c AddModule mod_so.c AddModule mod_setenvif.c Port 80 DocumentRoot /home/httpd/html ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /home/httpd/cgi-bin/ TypesConfig /etc/httpd/conf/mime.types <Directory /home/httpd/cgi-bin> AllowOverride None Options ExecCGI Order allow,deny Allow from all </Directory> RewriteEngine On RewriteLog logs/zap_rewrite_log RewriteLogLevel 9 RewriteCond %{HTTP:Authorization} ^(.*) RewriteRule ^/Zope(.*) /home/httpd/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi$1 [e=HTTP_CGI_AUTHORIZATION:%1,t=application/x-httpd-cgi,l] ErrorLog logs/error_log LogLevel warn LogFormat "%h %l %u %t \"%r\" %>s %b" common CustomLog logs/access_log common BrowserMatch "Mozilla/2" nokeepalive BrowserMatch "MSIE 4\.0b2;" nokeepalive downgrade-1.0 force-response-1.0 BrowserMatch "RealPlayer 4\.0" force-response-1.0 BrowserMatch "Java/1\.0" force-response-1.0 BrowserMatch "JDK/1\.0" force-response-1.0 My security setting is very simple, it's just the Zope's default -- Anonymous only has "View" access, while Managers have full access. Kam

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RE: [Zope] Problem refering to a subfolder object
by Alexander Staubo 11 Jul '99

11 Jul '99

Something like this also works::  <img src="images/global/">  <img src="images/global/default">  The undocumented function _.hasattr() -- which afaik is just a wrapper around the Python hasattr() function -- lets you determine if an object contains a particular attribute. Since folder subobjects can be accessed as Python attributes, this works. Note that a potentially better way -- depending on your site configuration and design -- might be::  <img src="">  <img src="">  Because of acquisition, the URL "images/global/..." will work from within anywhere in your site. That's good, but that does not help browsers caching contents. In fact, by lazily accepting the wonders of acquisitions you're working against the browser. To the web browser, "/images/..." and "/mystuff/images/..." are not identical URLs, even if they point to exactly the same object inside Zope. In the above snippet, absolute_url() ensures that the OFS, not the acquired, URL is given, and so it will always be given as "/images/global/[whatever]", which will let browsers consistently cache the images. Note how folder objects overload the subscripting operator. This means that the syntax "Folder.<subobject>" is functionally equivalent to "Folder['<subobject>']". -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >-----Original Message----- >From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Kam >Cheung >Sent: 11. juli 1999 18:42 >To: zope(a)zope.org >Subject: [Zope] Problem refering to a subfolder object > > >A very newbie question: > >How can I refer to a subfolder object? Basically, what I am >trying to do is. >given a string, I want to detect whether an image with the >same name as the >string exists or not in a subfolder, if it does, it display >the object, if >not, it will show a default image. Here is what I have tried, >but doesn't >work: > >Let's say, a document has a string called "section" and the >value of it is >"abc". > > > <IMG SRC="images/global/"> > > <IMG SRC="images/global/default"> > > >That doesn't work. I did find a way to do it by doing: > > >  >  > <IMG SRC="images/global/"> >  > <IMG SRC="images/global/default"> >  >  > > >But I think there must be an easier way to do that. > > > > >Kam On Cheung > >_______________________________________________ >Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > >(For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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Re: [Zope] Another bechmark - 2.0.0a3
by michel＠digicool.com 11 Jul '99

11 Jul '99

Itamar S.-T. <itamars(a)ibm.net> writes: > I decided to run torture.pl against Zope 2.0.0a3 using ZServer, with 40 > clients running concurrently. Notice that the results were faster than Zope > 1.10.2 on ZopeHTTPServer using only 10 clients, my previous test. Last time > however I ran against the "Welcome to Zope" page, while this time I ran > against a much smaller page (200 bytes.) So the speed difference may be a > result of this. I'll try again tommorow. > > The reason that I didn't run against the Welcome page is that when I run > Zope2 from ZopeHTTPServer I do get this welcome page, but when I run from > ZServer (python z2.py) I don't. What did I do wrong? Do they store their > databases in different locations? > ZopeHTTPServer runs Zope in ZODB2 mode (single threaded), for which there is default content. The deafult confinguration of ZServer is to run Zope in ZODB3 mode (concurrent), for which there is no default content. Both the concurrency and async socket architecture of ZServer will blow ZopeHTTPServer out of the water. Also, there isn't anything that ZopeHTTPServer can do that ZServer can't do better. Their both python, can both be called from python scripts, can both be used in localhost proxies, and ZServer can run in ZODB2 mode for backward compatability. > GET, 1000 chars of garbage in query string > Transactions: 4000 > Elapsed time: 143.493 sec > Bytes Transferred: 5431436 bytes > Response Time: 1.62 sec > Transaction Rate: 27.88 trans/sec > Throughput: 37851.53 bytes/sec > Concurrency: 45.2 > Status Code 200: 3954 > Status Code 500: 46 > What kind of hardware was this? How many threads did you run ZServer with? > This resulted in lots of: > Server Error: exceptions.KeyError, > uaL: file: /itamar/Zope-2.0.0a3-src/lib/python/ZPublisher/HTTPRequest.py > line: 246 > errors from ZServer. Someone should really check this out. Yes this has happened to me on my amateur benchmarking. I'm looking into it. > > I then ran with 0 chars of garbage - simply GET the page 100 times, 40 > clients: > Transactions: 4000 > Elapsed time: 113.816 sec > Bytes Transferred: 684000 bytes > Response Time: 1.10 sec > Transaction Rate: 35.14 trans/sec > Throughput: 6009.73 bytes/sec > Concurrency: 38.7 > Status Code 200: 4000 > > I have no idea why so little bytes were transferred, except noting that the > page I tested was tiny - 200 bytes or so (standard "This is index_html" DTML > doc.) > Actually smaller pages will probably slow down Zope as opposed larger ones (up to a limit). This is the same reason why lots of little packets will throw certain routers out of their mind. The overhead required to return a small static document equals that of the overhead to return a large one (note the part about 'static', lots of DTML can easily change this). Thus there is probably a 'sweet spot' document size where Zope returns the highest requests per second. -Michel > -- > Itamar - itamars(a)ibm.net > -----------------------------o-------------------------------------o > Sealingwax Greeting Cards | The only good morning is a dead one | > http://www.sealingwax.com/ | --Richard Stallman | > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

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