May 1999 - Zope - Zope lists

RE: [Zope] Problem with Zope & Apache
by Rob Page 27 May '99

27 May '99

> It is on a Celeron with 64MB, running Linux, Debian 2.1 with > 2.2.1 kernel. > The apache is 1.3.3-7, from the deb apache package. > > On Wed, 26 May 1999, you wrote: > > > With the built in zope http server I have no problems at all. > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > What platform (hw/os)? Hmm.. then I might agree with an earlier post to the list that it sounds like a problem with the Apache build... --Rob

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Patent Threat to Zope?
by �̰��(LEE Kwan Soo) 27 May '99

27 May '99

Just read from slashdot. A company filed & granted a patent which may become a threat to our cherished Zope('s potential, at least). Excerpt: "When the browser makes the request to a Web server, the patent covers the notion of redirecting that request to other machines [application servers] within a cluster and having those other machines dynamically produce a response," Wired. See this link. What do you think of? LEE Kwan Soo.

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Re: [Zope-dev] Product icon woes
by Anthony Baxter 27 May '99

27 May '99

>>> Martijn Faassen wrote > > > I've done just about everything I've come up with, including breaking > > > the product, to make it use my new icon. But whatever I do, it keeps > > > coming up with that MailHost icon! make sure your browser isn't caching the image. the only way I've found to make netscape reliably get a new copy is to load up only the image, then hit shift-reload. yay browsers. Anthony -- Anthony Baxter <anthony(a)interlink.com.au> It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

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RE: Using supplied demo Gadfly database
by Aaron Watters 26 May '99

26 May '99

Olivier Berger reports: >I found the demo (empty) database supplied with Zope but couldn't get it to work... >even a simple select * from __table_names__ won't work... >Tried to import an allready working gadfly base created with Python (gfplus) next to the >demo directory, but neither did it work.... I think this is because Zope distributes a very old version of Gadfly and probably uses it even if you have the 1.0 released version. Maybe try hacking whatever zope uses for the pythonpath so that it gets the released version. Beyond that I'm clueless. Hoping to see you at Journee Python France http://www.onera.fr/congres/jpf001/index.html http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~aaron/jpf/index.htm -- Aaron Watters === Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get you!

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RE: [Zope] OT: Help a newbie install Zope 2.0!
by Michel Pelletier 26 May '99

26 May '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Bernstein [mailto:mbernstein@profitscape.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12:01 PM > To: Chris Petrilli > Cc: zope(a)zope.org > Subject: Re: [Zope] OT: Help a newbie install Zope 2.0! > > > Chris Petrilli wrote: > > > > > [Question about newbie installing 2.0alpha] > > > > For the same reason that we will *not* provide binaries of the alpha > > releases (and may only provide them for later betas and "release > > candidates"), alpha are certainly not a good place to start > for someone > > new to Zope, especially if you do not have extensive experience with > > Python and whatever platform you are running on. > > Hmm, I realize this, but, although I am a newbie on Linux and > Python, I > _have_ been playing with Zope for a while now (I'm the original author > of the global tree-tag navigation howto) on NT. I figured though that > compiling Zope on Linux would probably be a lot cleaner, as that's the > platform you do your development on. > > > This only begs to have > > all kinds of problems related to issues outside our control. > > This was why I decided to install on an unmodified RedHat > machine, so as > to minimize those issues. > > > I would recommend you start with 1.10.2, as there is plenty > in there to > > get your head wrapped around before delving into the new > features of 2.0 > > ... even once 2.0 is RELEASED, it is still a x.0 release, > and therefore > > is really only for those people who NEED to be on the bleeding edge > > (i.e. because they'll need ZClasses, or some such), rather than a > > general populace release. > > Yup, got it in one! I _have_ been using 1.10.2, and I _do_ need that > extra functionality. > Ok, this is futher complicated by the fact that you need to compile Python 1.5.2. (The RPM may work, but you'll need the devel RPM *and* the bin RPM will need to support threads. This was not so in RedHat 5.2, so you either had to compile your own or use the python that came with Zope). So get 1.5.2, compile --with-threads and install. Your on your own here. Download 2.0.0a1, untar and unzip. run 'python1.5.2 wo_pcgi.py' if it fails at this point it's probably because it couldn't compile the extensions because 1.5.2 was not installed correctly. Your on your own. customize ZServer file 'start.py' (you'll need to read it and grok) start up ZServer and go with it. -Michel > Thank you for your attention, > > Michael Bernstein. > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope?
by Michel Pelletier 26 May '99

26 May '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Jordan B. Baker [mailto:jbb@spyderlab.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:23 PM > To: Alexander Staubo > Cc: Zope@Zope. Org > Subject: RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope? > > > On Wed, 26 May 1999, Alexander Staubo wrote: > > One thing that might help alleviate concerns about > scalability is having a > page on the site that details some hard numbers about real-world Zope > installations (ie. # of objects stored, numbers of access per > day handled, > size in megabytes of the database, etc). > We do not have a copious amount of hard numbers, but I do have one off the top of my head. We installed a large chunk of the rufus.w3.org RPM database into the beta Catalog. Doing a full free text search for the word 'mail', returned 98 hits (out of 3400 records) in less than 4 thousandths of a second. To be precise it took: 0.00364 seconds. -Michel > Just my 2 cents. > > ------- > Jordan B. Baker -- jbb(a)spyderlab.com > weaving the web @ http://www.spyderlab.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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ZODB and large data sets
by Jimmie Houchin 26 May '99

26 May '99

I am working through the design of my website as I study and learn Zope. I've started to work on calculating storage requirements to determine server needs as I am also working on building my server. My app can easily be divided into multiple datasets or databases. One of the datasets I am looking at has a potential of 4+ million objects with each object requiring 15-50kb minimum. This dataset can be subdivided. Initially I will not populate the database will all of the items in their full form, but will populate as requests for data come. However I need to develop as if and plan for complete population. This makes for a very large database and one that spans more than one hard drive. Can Zope create and use multiple ZODBs on multiple hard drives? If so, how will such a large dataset affect packing and the creation of the backup file? Will I need to use multiple other database backends such as MySQL or possibly MetaKit? Thanks for any help or thoughts. Jimmie Houchin

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Bug in #tree tag?
by alex＠mop.no 26 May '99

26 May '99

On my system (IE 5.0 and Netscape 3.0 tested), the #tree tag writes tables that are misaligned past the third level. Here's an example: http://zdp.zope.org/guide/index_html?tree-e=eJyLNjKytNRRMDI2MAaRRiDSxMgk FgA8fgTR#2424 Hopefully this URL gets you to the correct place. Here, when "Chapter I", "Chapter II" (under "Introducing Zope" -> "Introduction to the Zope..." -> "Getting Started" --> "Outline") and so on is expanded, there's a gap between the second and third level, and an even larger gap between third and fourth level. This seems to vary depending on which levels are expanded. I have not researched the problem, just noted its existence on several browsers and several trees (ZDP, QuickStart, my own trees, etc.). -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "In the end, we all assume room temperature." --John Maynard Keynes

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RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope?
by alex＠mop.no 26 May '99

26 May '99

Sorry if you misunderstood my intensions -- I was just asking a question, that's all. I did not mean to rag on DC in any way. I have not read about their standpoint regarding commercial/free products, so for me that question was logical. I'm _all_ for what you say. Kudos to DC for making this discussion largely irrelevant. :-) The Windows example was about design, not openness, and the reference to Microsoft (a pox on them all!) was about price level. >From what I'm seen so far of their corporate (or non-corporate, depending on your point of view) thinking, DC does have my stamp of approval. -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "In the end, we all assume room temperature." --John Maynard Keynes >-----Original Message----- >From: Howard Clinton Shaw III [mailto:shawh@sths.org] >Sent: 26. mai 1999 23:14 >To: Alexander Staubo; Zope@Zope. Org >Subject: RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope? > > >On Wed, 26 May 1999, Alexander Staubo wrote: >> Paul Everitt wrote: >> [snip] >[snip] >> [snip] >[snip] >> > It's likely that the part that stores data in the >relational database >> > might start out commercial, as well as the client-server version of >> the >> > object database. >> >> This statement piques me, for several reasons. I don't mind >that Digital >> Creations publish products that are commercial and cost $, but I'd >> object to any Microsoft-ish pricing (eg., if you'd sold Confera for >> $1000 I'd definitely balk). So please be lenient, huh? But more than >> that I'd like to ask you what happens when you demote a commercial >> product to a free one. Isn't this unfair to all those people >who might >> have bought it? > >Digital Creations have made their standpoint on this clear >several times, and personally >I have to agree with them. If they make a product available >for a price, then in paying that >you are paying to get it NOW. With most products, including >your example of Windows, you >pay just to get your hands on it. If the documentation is not >yet complete, or certain areas >of procedure have yet to solidify, then to release it would >generate a wave of requests for >assistance, which DC cannot afford to supply. Therefore, those >products whose current >state is one which can be expected to generate a more than >reasonable amount of 'need' >in terms of support and care, then they restrict its >distribution by making it available only >to those who need it enough to pay for it, thereby limiting >its spread (and the resulting >calls for help) and providing sufficient remuneration that DC >can afford to answer those >queries which do appear. Witness ZTables, which has been >available for some time, and >in use in several places, as a commercial, i.e. >remuneration-required, product. When it >reaches a state of easy usability and sufficient >documentation, it will become available to >those who do not have a strong enough 'need' to pay for it upfront. > >They don't demote a commercial product to a free one. They >promote it to an open one! Their >opening of the code has benefits even for those who initially >purchased it, in terms of a wider >body of knowledgable developers who can answer questions >regarding it, etc. > >Think of it in reverse. What is really happening, is that they >are developing a free/open product, >but can't afford to release it until they can handle the >volume of traffic that it will generate. You >are paying them to release it early to you. > >I know that personally, with respect to their stated goal of >maintaining an arm's length, the picture >of a stratified community, with some relegated to the 'free' >club and others given special treatment >in the 'gold' club seems likely to generate strain betwixt and >between that is not necessarily present >in the other view. Basically, we are all on a level playing >field... the information and tools are available >to all, if you wait long enough, and for those who can't wait, >a bit of money will grease the wheels. >Let's not divide the community. > >Paul, DC, let me just say once again, that in all the reading >of articles and discussions and responses, >never have I seen a negative image of Zope or DC go by. You >guys are on target in maintaining >the proper relationship with the community you have fostered >and built around Zope. Keep up the >excellent work. > > >> >> Maybe you should consider stratifying your product line into >"free" and >> "subscription". If I join the Zope Gold Club for $500/year, I get all >> your heavy-duty client/server stuff for free. Sort of a "fixed rate" >> thing. >> >> > > 3) Zope is not "standard" enough that should I get run over by a >> > > truck development could proceed without me. Finding >consultants and >> > > programmers other than myself to work on this project could >> > > be difficult. >> > >> > I completely realize that going with Zope is still a risky >decision. >> > However, the question of risk due to being non-standard is >> > mostly offset >> > by the risk of going with a closed-source vendor. Do you >> > _really_ trust >> > Apple et al. to be responsive to all of your issues? IMO, >customers >> > should demand control. >> >> The risk from my own point of view is really that Zope's >design suddenly >> one day might prove inefficient. For example, what if Zope >doesn't scale >> beyond 1000 objects? That's my fear, because such a break in >scalability >> may be deep in its design. I doubt that Zope doesn't handle 1000 >> objects, because obviously you've done some testing beyond that limit >> (you have, haven't you? Right? RIGHT? :), but since I've not looked >> through all the sources I can never be sure that at some >point I'll say >> "I'd like to do..." and somebody will tell me "You can't, because >> internally Zopes this and that as...". That's how Windows >tends to work. >> :-) >> >> Alexander Staubo >> mailto:alex@mop.no >> http://www.mop.no/~alex/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >> http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope >> >> (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >> zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >-- >Howard Clinton Shaw III - Grum >St. Thomas High School >#include "disclaimer.h" >

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RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope?
by alex＠mop.no 26 May '99

26 May '99

>> Maybe you should consider stratifying your product line into >"free" and >> "subscription". If I join the Zope Gold Club for $500/year, I get all >> your heavy-duty client/server stuff for free. Sort of a "fixed rate" >> thing. > >Digicool is offering to give you stuff for free, and you want >to pay for >it? I think you're kinda missing the point of the OpenSource model - >selling support, expertise, and "the feature you requested >goes in FIRST >since you paid", not software as such. Well, Paul wrote: Paul> It's likely that the part that stores data in the relational database Paul> might start out commercial, as well as the client-server version of Paul> the object database. In other words, commercial = they're probably going to sell Zope extensions. I didn't say I wanted to pay for something that is free. >The problem with Microsoft isn't their prices - it's that >their software is closed and proprietary. That's one problem, the other is that they ask outrageous sums of money for it, and for providing support for the product that you splashed your hard-earned, lovely money onto. In this country MS Support asks for $400 for one -- that's ONE! -- support question. (Which, by the way, is one reason we simply don't call MS Support.) This is for a product that cost $1000. No wonder Microsoft speaks of "Total Cost of Ownership" -- they know, because they defined it. Yeah, open source software is great. Frankly I'm surprised there's anything _but_ open source software. -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "In the end, we all assume room temperature." --John Maynard Keynes

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