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Bug in #tree tag?
by alex＠mop.no 26 May '99

26 May '99

On my system (IE 5.0 and Netscape 3.0 tested), the #tree tag writes tables that are misaligned past the third level. Here's an example: http://zdp.zope.org/guide/index_html?tree-e=eJyLNjKytNRRMDI2MAaRRiDSxMgk FgA8fgTR#2424 Hopefully this URL gets you to the correct place. Here, when "Chapter I", "Chapter II" (under "Introducing Zope" -> "Introduction to the Zope..." -> "Getting Started" --> "Outline") and so on is expanded, there's a gap between the second and third level, and an even larger gap between third and fourth level. This seems to vary depending on which levels are expanded. I have not researched the problem, just noted its existence on several browsers and several trees (ZDP, QuickStart, my own trees, etc.). -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "In the end, we all assume room temperature." --John Maynard Keynes

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RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope?
by alex＠mop.no 26 May '99

26 May '99

Sorry if you misunderstood my intensions -- I was just asking a question, that's all. I did not mean to rag on DC in any way. I have not read about their standpoint regarding commercial/free products, so for me that question was logical. I'm _all_ for what you say. Kudos to DC for making this discussion largely irrelevant. :-) The Windows example was about design, not openness, and the reference to Microsoft (a pox on them all!) was about price level. >From what I'm seen so far of their corporate (or non-corporate, depending on your point of view) thinking, DC does have my stamp of approval. -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "In the end, we all assume room temperature." --John Maynard Keynes >-----Original Message----- >From: Howard Clinton Shaw III [mailto:shawh@sths.org] >Sent: 26. mai 1999 23:14 >To: Alexander Staubo; Zope@Zope. Org >Subject: RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope? > > >On Wed, 26 May 1999, Alexander Staubo wrote: >> Paul Everitt wrote: >> [snip] >[snip] >> [snip] >[snip] >> > It's likely that the part that stores data in the >relational database >> > might start out commercial, as well as the client-server version of >> the >> > object database. >> >> This statement piques me, for several reasons. I don't mind >that Digital >> Creations publish products that are commercial and cost $, but I'd >> object to any Microsoft-ish pricing (eg., if you'd sold Confera for >> $1000 I'd definitely balk). So please be lenient, huh? But more than >> that I'd like to ask you what happens when you demote a commercial >> product to a free one. Isn't this unfair to all those people >who might >> have bought it? > >Digital Creations have made their standpoint on this clear >several times, and personally >I have to agree with them. If they make a product available >for a price, then in paying that >you are paying to get it NOW. With most products, including >your example of Windows, you >pay just to get your hands on it. If the documentation is not >yet complete, or certain areas >of procedure have yet to solidify, then to release it would >generate a wave of requests for >assistance, which DC cannot afford to supply. Therefore, those >products whose current >state is one which can be expected to generate a more than >reasonable amount of 'need' >in terms of support and care, then they restrict its >distribution by making it available only >to those who need it enough to pay for it, thereby limiting >its spread (and the resulting >calls for help) and providing sufficient remuneration that DC >can afford to answer those >queries which do appear. Witness ZTables, which has been >available for some time, and >in use in several places, as a commercial, i.e. >remuneration-required, product. When it >reaches a state of easy usability and sufficient >documentation, it will become available to >those who do not have a strong enough 'need' to pay for it upfront. > >They don't demote a commercial product to a free one. They >promote it to an open one! Their >opening of the code has benefits even for those who initially >purchased it, in terms of a wider >body of knowledgable developers who can answer questions >regarding it, etc. > >Think of it in reverse. What is really happening, is that they >are developing a free/open product, >but can't afford to release it until they can handle the >volume of traffic that it will generate. You >are paying them to release it early to you. > >I know that personally, with respect to their stated goal of >maintaining an arm's length, the picture >of a stratified community, with some relegated to the 'free' >club and others given special treatment >in the 'gold' club seems likely to generate strain betwixt and >between that is not necessarily present >in the other view. Basically, we are all on a level playing >field... the information and tools are available >to all, if you wait long enough, and for those who can't wait, >a bit of money will grease the wheels. >Let's not divide the community. > >Paul, DC, let me just say once again, that in all the reading >of articles and discussions and responses, >never have I seen a negative image of Zope or DC go by. You >guys are on target in maintaining >the proper relationship with the community you have fostered >and built around Zope. Keep up the >excellent work. > > >> >> Maybe you should consider stratifying your product line into >"free" and >> "subscription". If I join the Zope Gold Club for $500/year, I get all >> your heavy-duty client/server stuff for free. Sort of a "fixed rate" >> thing. >> >> > > 3) Zope is not "standard" enough that should I get run over by a >> > > truck development could proceed without me. Finding >consultants and >> > > programmers other than myself to work on this project could >> > > be difficult. >> > >> > I completely realize that going with Zope is still a risky >decision. >> > However, the question of risk due to being non-standard is >> > mostly offset >> > by the risk of going with a closed-source vendor. Do you >> > _really_ trust >> > Apple et al. to be responsive to all of your issues? IMO, >customers >> > should demand control. >> >> The risk from my own point of view is really that Zope's >design suddenly >> one day might prove inefficient. For example, what if Zope >doesn't scale >> beyond 1000 objects? That's my fear, because such a break in >scalability >> may be deep in its design. I doubt that Zope doesn't handle 1000 >> objects, because obviously you've done some testing beyond that limit >> (you have, haven't you? Right? RIGHT? :), but since I've not looked >> through all the sources I can never be sure that at some >point I'll say >> "I'd like to do..." and somebody will tell me "You can't, because >> internally Zopes this and that as...". That's how Windows >tends to work. >> :-) >> >> Alexander Staubo >> mailto:alex@mop.no >> http://www.mop.no/~alex/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >> http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope >> >> (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >> zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >-- >Howard Clinton Shaw III - Grum >St. Thomas High School >#include "disclaimer.h" >

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RE: [Zope] To Zope or Not To Zope?
by alex＠mop.no 26 May '99

26 May '99

>> Maybe you should consider stratifying your product line into >"free" and >> "subscription". If I join the Zope Gold Club for $500/year, I get all >> your heavy-duty client/server stuff for free. Sort of a "fixed rate" >> thing. > >Digicool is offering to give you stuff for free, and you want >to pay for >it? I think you're kinda missing the point of the OpenSource model - >selling support, expertise, and "the feature you requested >goes in FIRST >since you paid", not software as such. Well, Paul wrote: Paul> It's likely that the part that stores data in the relational database Paul> might start out commercial, as well as the client-server version of Paul> the object database. In other words, commercial = they're probably going to sell Zope extensions. I didn't say I wanted to pay for something that is free. >The problem with Microsoft isn't their prices - it's that >their software is closed and proprietary. That's one problem, the other is that they ask outrageous sums of money for it, and for providing support for the product that you splashed your hard-earned, lovely money onto. In this country MS Support asks for $400 for one -- that's ONE! -- support question. (Which, by the way, is one reason we simply don't call MS Support.) This is for a product that cost $1000. No wonder Microsoft speaks of "Total Cost of Ownership" -- they know, because they defined it. Yeah, open source software is great. Frankly I'm surprised there's anything _but_ open source software. -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "In the end, we all assume room temperature." --John Maynard Keynes

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Demo site
by Graham Chiu 26 May '99

26 May '99

I'm having a little difficulty getting my head around this stuff. Is there source code for a demo site that implements frames, navigation bars etc. I tried looking to find the source for the online help but couldn't see how to get at it. Thanks, ------- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiu<at>compkarori.co.nz

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RE: [Zope] Where is 1.11pre
by .Oliver_Thuns. 26 May '99

26 May '99

>> IMHO, the 1.11pre release is useful because it was available >> in binary form >> and ready to run under Windows. >Well, 2.0a is no less or more buggy than 1.11pre, as the main difference >is the addition of the ZODB3 software, but you can continue to use your >ZODB2 database. I would recommend just moving to that for >development---but NOT deployment. A Windows binary would be very useful. It's no problem to compile something with gcc, but I don't have a windows c compiler. Oliver -- I'm busily ignoring some thousand of implications I have determined to be irrelevant.

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To Zope or Not To Zope?
by Ryan Daum 26 May '99

26 May '99

A client of ours has approached us about designing and building a major web portal project focused around a particular topic area with extensive member services and content management abilities. We now have to spec this project out and at some point in the near future I will have to decide on a WWW server/Application server/Database combination. Zope is in the running, along with WebObjects, NetObjects, ODI's ObjectStore + ObjectForms, etc. My initial impulse is to go with Zope because of its low cost overhead and my expertise with Python as well as the access I have to this mailing list and so on. Unfortunately my desire to do implement python is offset by a few major concerns, and I would like to see if anybody out there could address these questions/concerns: 1) Zope seems to want to operate in a configuration of web server, application server, and object database all in one package. I have managed to get Zope to run using ZServer + Apache PCGI, but the performance seems quite quite dismal. My concern is mainly scalability: I want to be able to use an industry standard web server (i.e. apache) separate from the application server so that I could do things like scale using multiple web servers, etc. etc. 2) The same issue applies to the DB layer. After floating through all the documentation on the zope.org site I am unclear what the relationship would be between Zope and an industrial strength database like Oracle 8, etc. I am wary of using Zope's own object DB because of scale and compatibility issues, but most of the benefits of using Zope would be mitigated if I ended up having to write SQL queries to access my Oracle database. The question is: is it possible to use a DB like Oracle or Postgres, etc. transparently and in the same manner that I would be using Zope's native db? How about an object DB like ODI's ObjectStore? 3) Zope is not "standard" enough that should I get run over by a truck development could proceed without me. Finding consultants and programmers other than myself to work on this project could be difficult. 4) At this moment in time my tendency is to want to sell the client on implementing Apple's WebObjects + Oracle8, but the cost overhead of that choice would limit the amount of revenue available for working on the project. What are other developers experiences with WebObjects, and how would they compare them to Zope? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ryan

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RE: [Zope] navigating through Zope
by Michel Pelletier 26 May '99

26 May '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Deprez [mailto:tom.deprez@village.uunet.be] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12:44 PM > To: zope(a)zope.org > Subject: [Zope] navigating through Zope > > > Is it possible to use the .. like in a directory structure? > > I.e. as URL giving ..\..\Folder > > meaning: go two folders up Z ODB and then go in Folder directory. > > This would come in handy... > It does. http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Reference/ORB under "Published Objects" > At ZDP, where using a tree to show partials of ZBook. In this > tree we've > declared : > > ............ /guide/introduction/starting/Outline/ ... > > > How can we make this url, less environment dependend? > What do you mean? tree-item-url is the URL of the object in the tree. This URL is dynamicly generated for each object, so it changes with it's environment. How do you want to be less dependant on the environment? Perhaps you need to provide more DTML to show the context in which you are using it. -Michel > Tom. > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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Bug ?
by Tom Deprez 26 May '99

26 May '99

Hi there, I think I found a bug in 1.11pre and I just let you know about it, because it can possibly be also in Zope2.0 The bug can be found in the tree tag. At ZDP, we've made a tree by which every branch refers to an url document. Now, I installed Zope1.11pre (for testing) at my home on a Windows95, with ZServer. I've exported a part of the tree of ZDP and imported into Zope on my old PC with Windows95. If I click on an url on my PC, I get an error message : Zope Error : Zope has encountered an error while publishing this resource. AttributeError : Sorry, a Zope error occurred. This doesn't happen on ZDP. I think this is a bug. But I don't know if it is because of Zope1.11pre, or windows OS. Tom.

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Printable Page (Newbie Question)
by Albert Kinderman 26 May '99

26 May '99

I like the look of the Zope site, although it could be better organized. 8=) I have started my site with a navigational tree on the left side. I want to offer printable pages, with the tree gone, just as the Zope site does. Is there a how-to reference? Al -- Albert Kinderman California State University, Northridge albert.kinderman(a)csun.edu Department of Management Science

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Problem with Zope & Apache
by Corey Ralph 26 May '99

26 May '99

I am having a problem with zope & apache. Everything works OK except when I try to make any changes in the manage, I get a window saying "the document contains no data", and it according to the logs, the apache child process caused a segmentation fault. With the built in zope http server I have no problems at all. Any ideas?

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