December 2002 - Zope

RE: [Zope] RE: Any comments from ex-PHP developers?
by sean.upton＠uniontrib.com 18 Dec '02

18 Dec '02

I get frustrated when reading other coders' PHP code, and I think it is right to direct that frustration at a crappy language. Compared to Zope/Python, PHPs weakness is a poor language, aside from platform/framework considerations. PHP breaks down for team development because it inlines code and presentation, but even worse, by way of example, is unclear method namespaces, and excessive promotion of inlline code evaluation: PHP is also horrible in its promotion of specialized-functionality-module-level stuff to global namespaces. At least in Python, if you want to create an ftp client, you do: from ftplib import FTP # I know where to look in the lib ref for this, no? f = FTP() #I know where FTP came from, no? f.connect('zopeserver.foo.com',8021) # f.set_pasv(1) l = f.dir() #etc... in PHP: $conn = ftp_connect('someserver.foo.com') #where did this come from? $login_res = ftp_login($conn, 'foouser','foopasswd') $upload = ftp_put....etc Notice the global namespaces for all the functions... You can't figure out explicitly where these things came from (unlike Python where tracing method/class names in code to import statements recursively is almost always at some point going to lead you back to the library reference, and perhaps understanding). If this doesn't make most developers (from many other languages - even Perl -that do this in a more modular way) concerned, I don't know what will. Another example: common practice of inlining execution of code in a PHP script: <% include('somesnippetofcode.php'); %> Inline eval of code is bad. Again, this is not explicit. This magic server-side-includish practice does not make sense in logic code. You want to criticize dtml code in Zope that does this just as much, but at least Zope provides you with a better alternative: do logic in Python, either TTW on on the filesystem (and either way, everything is clear becuase you call other modules via component/object interfaces instead of inline evaluation). Explicit is always better than implicit, except when it isn't - and trust me, neither of these count as one of those cases. Sean -----Original Message----- From: Lennart Regebro [mailto:lennart@regebro.nu] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:51 AM To: zope(a)zope.org; Frederic Faure Subject: Re: [Zope] RE: Any comments from ex-PHP developers? From: "Frederic Faure" <ffaure(a)bigfoot.com> > - Python is truly OOP : What is missing in PHP4? Multiple inheritance? Well, yes, but mostly an object store. > - Zope uses its own DB instead of a filesystem. But then, nobody complains > when data are saved in other DBMS's, so why do they complain about ZODB? This is actually a pro, not a con. :-) The fact that that DB is also file based, and doesn't require you to set up an SQL-database is another pro. _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

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Considerations using Zope
by Daniël Hooymans 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

Hi, At our company we are checking out some development platforms (must be crossplatform) we will going to use in the near future. Our list of platforms is (PHP, JSP, ZOPE / Python, J2EE - Java). Our company focuses itself mostly to webdevelopment for educational purposes. I proposed Zope to be included in this list because i believe it is a good, stable and innovative platform to use although still new to many. Because of my proposal and familiarity of Zope, i was selected to give a presentation which should (read MUST ;-) ) influence my colleagues so that zope will be THE development within our organisation for the future. Currently there are ten points of consideration set by my boss. These are not specific to zope but for all potential platforms. It would be very helpfull if you would take some time giving me input on these considerations. I will take them in account when making the presentation. Considerations: ================================== 1. Object Orientation In which ways is the language object oriented en which things are missing from the language. 2. Server and client objects. To what extend is it possible to define and use client side objects aside from server components. e.g. Possibility to include/use special tags which automagically instantiate the correct custom control objects. 3. Framework How diverse is the default library of Objects and methods. (Guess this is more a python thing besides the use of products) 4. Support How / howfar is the development platform used by developers. Is there a good knowledge base / FAQ's available. Are there good / many newsgroups available... ( Hmmmm, depend on response to this message ;-) ) 5. 3th party support Are there extentional development tools available. What kind of engines are available. ( python / zope ) Are extra components available. If so, which. ( yeah yeah, Zope product database is one) 6. Cost What do the essential development tools cost. What are the costs to commercially use the development platform. 7. Userfriendly How good is the development platform. Are all tools needed available. Is the platform intuitive to use. 8. Distribution What is needed to host a website using the platform. (no need to answer.. zope ??) 9. XML Support Which tools are available. 10. Developer value What is the value of a developer having good knowledge of the platform on the jobmarket. [11]. What are other pros/cons using Zope / Python as development platform. ================================== So far the list. Last entry is my own. Thanks in advance, Daniel Hooymans Sofware developer www.edufocus.nl

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Zope won't start: "module ZODB.cPersistence not loaded"
by Mike Payson 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

I've just installed Zope, but I can't get it to start. I get the following error: bash-2.05$ ./start /usr/home/mpayson/Zope-2.6.0-src/z2.py:378: UserWarning: You are running Python version 2.1.1. This Python version has known bugs that may cause Zope to run improperly. Consider upgrading to a Python in the 2.1 series with at least version number 2.1.3. (Note that Zope does not yet run under any Python 2.2 version). warnings.warn(err) ------ 2002-12-16T07:48:47 INFO(0) zdaemon Started subprocess: pid 27298 /usr/home/mpayson/Zope-2.6.0-src/z2.py:378: UserWarning: You are running Python version 2.1.1. This Python version has known bugs that may cause Zope to run improperly. Consider upgrading to a Python in the 2.1 series with at least version number 2.1.3. (Note that Zope does not yet run under any Python 2.2 version). warnings.warn(err) ------ 2002-12-16T07:48:47 PANIC(300) z2 Startup exception Traceback (innermost last): Module __main__, line 580, in ? Module <string>, line 1, in ? Module Zope, line 21, in ? Module ZODB, line 15, in ? SystemError: _PyImport_FixupExtension: module ZODB.cPersistence not loaded Clearly, I need to upgrade Python, but I'm assuming that's not the origin of the error. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance! -- Mike Payson | DawgDayz Dog Walking & Pet Sitting (206) 280-7295 | www.dawgdayz.com | mpayson(a)dawgdayz.com

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Weblogs on Zope?
by Mike Payson 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

Just out of curiosity, are there any tools that I should be looking at for a slashdot-like website? I was going to use Squishdot, but the project seems dead. Swishdot sounds promising, but as far as I can tell from a Google search, it doesn't actually exist. Is there something else I should be looking at? -- Mike Payson | DawgDayz Dog Walking & Pet Sitting (206) 280-7295 | www.dawgdayz.com | mpayson(a)dawgdayz.com

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Strip-o-Gram 1.3 Released!
by Chris Withers 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

Strip-o-Gram is an HTML Conversion Library that can convert HTML to Plain Text and strip specified tags and Javascript from HTML. See http://www.zope.org/Members/chrisw/StripOGram for more details. This release includes several bug fixes and some new features and will allow the methods to be used from Zope's Script (Python)'s once http://collector.zope.org/Zope/685 has been resolved. cheers, Chris

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ZCatalog indexing help request
by Kamal Gill 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

I need to know how to control what objects are indexed by ZCatalog based on a custom property I have added to files and folders I do not want indexed by ZCatalog. I have added a boolean property named 'noindex' and have set its value as TRUE for files and folders I do not want indexed by ZCatalog. Now, what I need to know is what to enter in the expr: |________________________| textarea form field of the find objects tab of my ZCatalog object in order to index all page templates *except* those that contain a 'noindex' property set to TRUE. Any advice on how to implement (and possibly automate?) this is much appreciated. - Kamal

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Does Zope stack up as a portal?
by Kyler Laird 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

This is going to be a horribly-formed request, but I'm looking for some guidance on evaluating a product being pitched. The product is UNICON Academus. http://www.unicon.net/academus/products/overview.html It's based on uPortal http://mis105.mis.udel.edu/ja-sig/uportal/ a "free, sharable portal under development by institutions of higher- education." UNICON's offerings appear to be closed and, at least for the authoring tool, MS Windows-only. I want Free tools. uPortal is better than something like Blackboard, but it still has some severe limitations due to its licensing. I'm wondering if I can confidently say that Zope can readily perform the same functions. I like using Zope for most everything these days, but every time I go to battle against CMF, I come away ready to continue using other methods for awhile. I suspect that CMF is what I would need to use to get uPortal/Academus-type functionality without starting from scratch. So...any opinions? I'm looking for comments like "Zope can't touch Academus without a *lot* of work" or "Oh, yeah, just fight through CMF and you're almost there." Specifics would be great, but I'll be happy just to get some insight. (If there's something besides CMF that can handle this role, I'll be especially interested.) Of course, I'd also be happy to receive offers to provide Academus-like functionality in Zope using Free software for a price on the order of that of Academus. (I don't know how much they charge yet, but I will soon.) Thank you. --kyler

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Printing within DTML
by McDonnell, Larry 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

Hi, I have created an online form that people are using. One form the user inputs the header information (name, address, etc.) and generates a record number. The next set of forms allows the user to put in detail information and there can be multiple line items per header record. They can see the single line item of information on the screen and can print (using the web browser printer). Is there a way, through a form/method, where the user can put in the record number and all associated line items print to their default printer? I understand how to do the calls to retrieve the information but I am a little fussy on how to send the css type output to a printer. Thanks in advance Larry McDonnell Proton Energy Systems 10 Technology Drive Wallingford, CT 06492 (203) 678-2181 Email:lmcdonnell@protonenergy.com www.protonenergy.com

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Re: [Zope] local characters and ParsedXML
by Dennis Allison 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

You might try setting your browser to display UTF-8. Take a look at the mix-in class, DOMIO, in the ParsedXML source, MangeableDOM.py. Internally ParsedXML works in Unicode and evaluates all entity references to their Unicode equivalent. When the ParsedXML renders the text into the <textarea> of the form, it does not recreate entity references from the internal representation but writes the character itself in a representation your browser does not understand. I think the right solution would be to override DOMIO with methods to recreate entity references from the Unicode source so that only ASCII characters appear in the <textarea>.

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Re: [Zope] Does Zope stack up as a portal?
by Paul Browning 17 Dec '02

17 Dec '02

--On 15 December 2002 12:48 -0500 Kyler Laird <kyler-dated-1040578352.848fde(a)lairds.org> wrote: > This is going to be a horribly-formed request, but I'm looking for some > guidance on evaluating a product being pitched. The product is UNICON > Academus. > http://www.unicon.net/academus/products/overview.html > > It's based on uPortal > http://mis105.mis.udel.edu/ja-sig/uportal/ > a "free, sharable portal under development by institutions of higher- > education." UNICON's offerings appear to be closed and, at least for > the authoring tool, MS Windows-only. > > I want Free tools. uPortal is better than something like Blackboard, > but it still has some severe limitations due to its licensing. Whoa. Don't confuse UNICON (about which I know precious little) and uPortal (about which I know a bit). Have you read the uPortal license? <http://mis105.mis.udel.edu/ja-sig/uportal/license.html> I don't see any cause for concern there. > I'm > wondering if I can confidently say that Zope can readily perform the > same functions. I think you can get a powerful framework like Zope +/- CMF to do reproduce uPortal. But you'd have to write the code first. There are some interesting developments like CMFPortlets <http://www.zope.org/Members/ausum/CMFPortlets> which show what is possible but they have some way to go to match uPortal. The University of Bristol wrestled with this question for a while - and then jumped both ways (uPortal for portal framework, Zope for CM framework). You can read more at: <http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/portal/portalbytes> Paul > > I like using Zope for most everything these days, but every time I go > to battle against CMF, I come away ready to continue using other > methods for awhile. I suspect that CMF is what I would need to use to > get uPortal/Academus-type functionality without starting from scratch. > > So...any opinions? I'm looking for comments like "Zope can't touch > Academus without a *lot* of work" or "Oh, yeah, just fight through CMF > and you're almost there." Specifics would be great, but I'll be happy > just to get some insight. (If there's something besides CMF that can > handle this role, I'll be especially interested.) > > Of course, I'd also be happy to receive offers to provide Academus-like > functionality in Zope using Free software for a price on the order of > that of Academus. (I don't know how much they charge yet, but I will > soon.) > > Thank you. > > --kyler > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > -- The Library, Tyndall Avenue, Univ. of Bristol, Bristol, BS8 1TJ, UK E-mail: paul.browning(a)bristol.ac.uk URL: http://www.bris.ac.uk/

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