- Zope - Zope lists

RE: [Zope] DISCUSS: Improving default content
by Theodore Patrick 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

AMEN - Great Call!!! I guess most of the issues we had here were more thinking in an OO paradigm. That should definitely be covered! Once you see in OO, everything else look archane. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bernstein [mailto:mbernstein@profitscape.net] Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 3:15 PM Cc: 'Paul Everitt'; zope(a)zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] DISCUSS: Improving default content Theodore Patrick wrote: > > <START> > Including several folders of info would be most helpful especially > considering the ability to view the source and view the results. This will > make the learning curve disappear. > > Personally I never realized the elegance of Zope until I started working > with forms and considering there was only one example of that feature. It > took me a while to be singing its praises mostly because of the learning > curve. > > <Proposed EXAMPLES> > > 1. A mock site showing the functions and included comments > 2. Language Guide with examples > a. Syntax for DTML - General Examples > b. ZOPE Methods and examples of each > c. Variables and examples of each > d. Zope Expressions and examples > > Go through examples of the different tags List _all_ the tags and methods, even if they're undocumented. <TAG LIST DELETED> > 3. General Zope Guide to OO Design 3a. Factoring Content 3b. Factoring Functionality 3c. OO layout techniques 3d. Guidelines for when and how to use the various extension techniques: DTML Methods, External Methods, Products, Levers, Classes, etc. (plus examples, if possible) > 4. Zope Access Control and Security > 5. SQL and Database Publishing > 1. SQL Language Guide - Examples in Zope > 6. ZOPE ZEN > 7. ZOPE SITE **** GOOD CALL***** > </Proposed EXAMPLES> Good stuff! Michael (it's all good) Bernstein. _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope

1 0

RE: [Zope] Product Creation Comments
by Kent Polk 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

> From: Paul Everitt <Paul(a)digicool.com> > > It's hard for us to know where to start. We got a <FLAME> yesterday > from the exact opposite: more examples with no Python, all DTML. We > also get complaints about debugging the process of getting it started > (apparently Apache configuration is our business as well). > > Do you feel that a format like Amos' tutorial is the best one? Or a > bunch of sample products? Or a reference guide? Amos' product development tutorial was a big help in my attempt to understand this stuff. Part of the problem is that not only are you using a level of OO design methodology that few people actually manage to deal with here, you are using some completely new paradigms which simply take (some of us, like me) time to comprehend. I make little steps, which are executed to the flash of a 1000 candlepowered strobe (to me) but it just serves to illuminate the next stairway. It's hard to make progress when we are so far behind what Jim, Brian, etc are putting out. :^) What I'm saying is that this stuff isn't trivial, and there is a tendency for the frustration to mount as the learning curve is tremendously steep here. I figure it's kinda like trying to explain Relativity back in the '40's when the only real tools available were fairly primitive mathematical tools which pushed their users to their mental limits. That's why there were only a few people who really had a chance to comprehend it back then. As tools and techniques got better and analogies were developed to assist the non-mathematicians in understanding the complexities, it began to seem fairly simple. Now I'm sitting here, trying to figure how in the heck to lay out the classes for this custom (scientific) file-table database product such that it can operate inside of Zope. First, it has to acquire attributes and methods in it's environment, then via class heirarchies. Basically a heirarchical table-of-tables filesystem-based TinyTables :^) And of course, I'm currently hopelessly lost because I don't understand how to create the relationship between a class heirarchy (traversing classes to locate a method) and the database hierarchy, not to mention the filtering heirarchy that I also want to implement which should be inherent in Acquisition. But how? Is supect that I'm somewhat in the same boat as the original poster of this thread - I'm attempting to implement behavior that is implicit in Acquisition, but I simply don't know how to 'let go' and let it do it's thing. What do I hold on to when I let go? I don't see anything there! :^) I agree that to a large extent, the reference material is probably close to complete, but the *comprehension* of what is in the reference material just isn't occurring. That's why, for me, iterative examples of a simple example such as Amos gave (and Mark Lutz's example in 'Programming Python') are so much of a help. As the example grows through the permutations that are possible, both comprehension of Zope technology and Zopeish design 'ethics' become more clear. I see I've covered science, technology, ethics and religion in one posting. Only left out politics... Wait! I'm lobbying now, aren't I??? :^) Kent

2 1

ZopeHTTPServer Shutting down on Netscape Error
by Timothy Grant 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

Hi all, I've run into an interesting little problem with the ZopeHTTPServer. I usually run Opera, but recently have been conducting tests with Navigator 4.08. I have discovered that this version of Navigator has a bad habit of GPFing on going into the management screens. The GPF is not the problem, the problem is that ZopeHTTPServer dies a quiet death. I don't know whether I have something configured wrong or what. I didn't think a broken pipe error would bring Zope to its knees, but it appears as if it is. Any light would be greatly appreciated. -- Stand Fast, tjg. =================================== Timothy J. Grant tjg(a)avalongroup.net Avalon Technology Group www.avalongroup.net (503) 246-3630 voice (503) 246-3124 fax This message may be digitally signed with PGP. A PGP signature guarantees that this message really did come from me. For more information regarding digital signatures and encryption, please contact me.

2 1

FYI: My lucky day, two testimonials
by Paul Everitt 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

Thanks to Theodore at Indigo Networks, it's my lucky day -- two testimonials. Thanks! http://www.zope.org/Community/Testimonials/ --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909

1 0

RE: [Zope] DISCUSS: Improving default content
by Theodore Patrick 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

<START> Including several folders of info would be most helpful especially considering the ability to view the source and view the results. This will make the learning curve disappear. Personally I never realized the elegance of Zope until I started working with forms and considering there was only one example of that feature. It took me a while to be singing its praises mostly because of the learning curve. <Proposed EXAMPLES> 1. A mock site showing the functions and included comments 2. Language Guide with examples a. Syntax for DTML - General Examples b. ZOPE Methods and examples of each c. Variables and examples of each d. Zope Expressions and examples Go through examples of the different tags #var #if #call #expr #else #unless #in #raise #comments #tree #sendmail formatting syntax batch processing variables and attributes _= namespace variable math attributes string attributes whrandom attributes name lookup request variables and attributes response variables and attributes cgi-defined variables and attributes 3. General Zope Guide to OO Design 4. Zope Access Control and Security 5. SQL and Database Publishing 1. SQL Language Guide - Examples in Zope 6. ZOPE ZEN 7. ZOPE SITE **** GOOD CALL***** </Proposed EXAMPLES> KEEP IT SIMPLE AND CLEAN AND YOU WILL BROADEN THE ZOPE USER BASE. We will all benefit. <END> Thanks, Theodore E. Patrick email: tpatrick(a)indigonetworks.com <mailto:tpatrick@indigonetworks.com> phone: 615-777-0070 ext.125 Indigo Networks - The Ultimate Choice In Who Sees You. http://www.indigonetworks.com

2 1

DISCUSS: Improving default content
by Paul Everitt 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

Howdy folks. Amos and I have a task for the final 1.10 release to overhaul and improve the default database that ships with Zope. Zope should provide, out of the box, attractive content that is effective in introducing new users to Zope. Since we are on track to be in the RH 6 Powertools CD and the Debian distribution, the 1.10 database needs to be pretty good. Obviously there is an overlap to our in-progress overhaul of the zope.org site, where we want to make it very easy for people to quickly find out what Zope is and why they should invest time and energy in exploring it. Thus, I'm soliciting comments for how we can improve the default content. As a postscript, I'd like to reiterate our apologies for our drop in attention over the last two weeks. We really are fighting off the disaster of getting screwed by our InfiNet, our (now previous) ISP. Our entire office is dialed up over one modem as one IP address. Hacking around this has consumed much of the engineering time around here :^(. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909

4 3

OT: Need to compare Python to Perl and Basic for Proposal
by Brad Clements 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

Sorry this is off-topic. I'm trying to convince Novell to sponser a port of Python (and hence, Zope) to the NetWare platform. NetWare already supports the following languages on the server: C Java JavaScript Basic (like VB) Perl Essentially, I need to convince Novell that Python is a better language, or has more support, or more pre-packaged solutions, etc, than Perl, Java or Basic. Does anyone know of any white papers comparing Python and Perl? Any "history of Perl" vs. "history of Python"? Novell has a significant investment in server-side interpreted langauges already. I'm also concerned about resource utilization, such as memory and processor time, for typical operations in perl vs. Python. Thanks for any suggestions.. Brad Clements, bkc(a)murkworks.com (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com ICQ: 14856937

2 1

FYI: Thanks for the testimonial, Timothy!
by Paul Everitt 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

I'd like to thank Timothy Grant from Avalon Technology Group for sending in a testimonial just now: http://www.zope.org/Community/Testimonials/ --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909

1 0

problem compiling ZSybaseDA
by WWW Admin 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

hi, when compiling ZSybaseDA, libtli needs to be included. however, it didn't come with open client for linux (where make is looking for it) nor did it come with the ZSybase DA. anybody know where i can find libtli? or am i doing anything wrong? regards, webman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- webman | _ beehive GmbH | ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) berlin, Germany | - against HTML email X http://www.beehive.de | & vcards / \

1 0

RE: [Zope] Documentation & Examples
by Paul Everitt 12 Feb '99

12 Feb '99

Theodore wrote: > I hate manuals as do many others. > I learn by example. > Without good examples of ZOPE DTML, DEVELOPMENT IS DIFFICULT > with this great > product. Tell you what -- you send me a list of scenarios that you'd like an example of and I'll see if we can get something done. Is something like Andy Smith's "DTML Example Folder" in the contributions at: http://www.zope.org/Download/Contrib/ the kind of thing you are looking for? > I KNOW - "RTFM" but there's barely any DTML in the > 1. Z Document Template Markup Language User's Guide > 2. Zope Manager's Guide > > HTML is easy to learn because of VIEW SOURCE. > DTML is difficult because of a lack of examples. True. > There are very few examples in the documentation and well > commented code is > hard to come by anywhere on the ZOPE site, except for 6 great > examples in > the How-to section. > > IS there a DTML Code Library for Idiots out there!!! There certainly should be. We ought to ship Andy's contributions in the default database that ships with Zope. > Put together a simple library of code > 1. Include clear comments > 2. Document individual functions > 3. Make it for idiots not code junkies > > Two things will happen. > > 1. ALLOT MORE USERS > 2. ALLOT MORE SOURCE DTML > > Everybody Wins!!!! > > </FLAME> > > Don't get me wrong! Zope is a fantastic Product and is one of the best > application servers on the market for any price. We use it > all the time. Ahh, perfect opportunity for a <COUNTERFLAME>. We don't expect people to pay us or require people to attribute us. But we do actively solicit testimonials, as newcomers to Zope first evaluate by looking at other case studies and testimonials. Unfortunately I don't see you listed at: http://www.zope.org/Community/Testimonials/ Any <FLAME> carries a lot more weight when it comes from someone that is working with us a partner and helping to spread the good word about Zope. With that said, though, your comments are certainly correct. We make it too hard to uncover the beauty of Zope. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909

1 0