June 1999 - Zope - Zope lists

Re: [Zope] DTML reformulated as XML (was RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?)
by Tony McDonald 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

>> I do want to point one thing out, though: adding namespaces does break >> the DTD. Currently there is no way to validate a document that uses > > Hmm, didn't realize that. > There's a big difference between validation (against a DTD) and well-formedness however. I suppose ideally you'll want validity, but for now (IMHO) stick with well-formedness (is that a word?). > > Here's one thing in DTML that would be awfully obscure in XML: > > <a href=""> > > That is, putting a tag inside an attribute. Chris Petrilli and Jim > talked about this today, perhaps as as entity references. > That'd be ok for the Zope variables that take no arguments (BASEn, URLn etc.) ie map BASE1 to &BASE1; but what about Zope variables that take attributes, eg ZopeTime fmt=whatever (for example, you'd use this awful construct to create a URL that had subparts such as /990612/) A very hairy problem. >> > At any rate, I'd love for someone in the Zope community to march off and >> > take a look at this, then make a proposal for how things should be >> > changed. As always, patches are accepted. :^) >> >> I've been meaning to do something like this. I might just spend some >> time thinking about it this weekend. Any actual coding probably won't >> happen, though. :) > > Understood. If you produced a clear definition of the goals, some > samples for the syntax, and a list of things that are good and bad about > it, then that would be a major win. > >> The simple stuff is easy: >> >> <?xml version='1.0'?> >> <xdtml:xdtml xmlns:xdtml="http://www.zope.org/xdtml" >> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1"> >> >> <xdtml:var name='standard_html_header'/> >> <h1><xdtml:var name='title'/></h1> >> This is a paragraph. >> >> <xdtml:if expr='age > 18'> >> Text not everyone should read. >> </xdtml:if> >> >> <xdtml:var name='standard_html_footer'/> >> >> </xtml:xdtml> > > I'd love to do a straw vote from the "I hate SSI" crowd: is the above > better? > No dis to Otto, but NIMHO. Too much typing. I'm from a PHP background where blocks of code exist in tandem with HTML. At first I had a real problem with DTML (still do, but that's another story :), but reading Paul and Chris' posts about separating code and data I realise that the DTML way is probably the best way to do it (as with so many other Zopey things). ps I don't hate SSI, and I don't have an alternative to the syntax Otto is describing - I should shut up now. >> The if gets really strange when you start adding 'elif' and 'else' >> clauses. I'll have to think about that one. >> >> The containing xdtml element is just there as a place to hang the >> namespace declarations off of. Also, it's there to make the DTML object >> a full-fledged self-contained XML document, needed to make any kind of >> editor useful. > > Precisely. It comes from the namespace declaration at the top. > > One more thing to muse over is whether other things from XML land should > surface. > > For instance, I've long wondered if the ubiquitous var tag should be > broken apart. People ask: why can't you give me a list of the things > that can go in the var tag? Why doesn't Zope check to see if my > documents reference subdocuments that no longer exist? The answer of > "it's too dynamic" feels like less than an answer. > > Instead, we could begin granularizing the tags, perhaps into things that > describe better where they came from. > > For instance, instead of saying , which > means insert a subdocument, why not use the XLink syntax from XML? > Would that not imply Zope parsing all elements in a page/object looking for attributes called xml:link? Isn't this a largeish overhead? It could also mean people writing <a xml:link="simple" href="standard_html_header" show="embed"/> instead of the above. Of course, if you get XLink stuff working in Zope, then presumably you get other interesting possibilities out too. rambling-ly yours, tone.

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1st european zope hosting provider
by webman 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Alexander Staubo 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Very lucid and intelligent discussion, Paul. As an eager fan of XML, I second the idea to push XHTML as the next-generation Zope DTML syntax. If this is the goal, the "tag" syntax currently used by Zope can be preserved, with some modifications. I've jotted down a few examples of how such a modified syntax might look, at least as I see it. At least this is one possible angle. (Note: Best read in a monospaced font.) XML syntax:: Equivalent legacy syntax:: <zope:tree expr="PARENTS[-1]">  ... stuff ... ... stuff ... </zope:tree>  <zope:var expr="id()"/>  <zope:var obj="standard_html_header"/>  <zope:var>index_html</zope:var>  For non-XMLists, notice the use of the slash ("/") character to close up empty elements. Also note how all parameters to a tag are wrapped in true attributes. Something like <var "foo"> simply isn't permitted. Here's a sample of specifying a default namespace, so you that you use Zope tags without qualifying them with the "zope" namespace. Notice how this -- if it is to be done cleanly -- requires that you prefix HTML tags with the "html" namespace. I have not decided whether this is entirely necessary, since Zope will preprocess the DTML and in this case, would have to remote the "html:" prefix anyway. <in xmlns="http://www.zope.org/schema/1.0" expr="objectValues('DTML Document')"> <var>title_or_id</var><html:br> </in> Unfortunately, the idea that you can write something like <var standard_html_header> is rescinded by XML, unless ASP-like "blocks" of code as Jules Allen proposes can be included. Given the current syntax I can't conceive of a way that this can be done elegantly -- the minute we step into "ASP-like"-ness, we're in the realm of "defining a new language". While Jules' example syntax would certainly work on a technical level, the question is, as much as we abhor the current SSI syntax, do we really want to become more like ASP? -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >-----Original Message----- >From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Paul >Everitt >Sent: 11. juni 1999 20:09 >To: 'Jules Allen'; zope(a)zope.org >Subject: RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ? > > > >Jules wrote: >> Has it been suggested that the SSI-type syntax of Zope isn't the most >> readable thing in the world? Is this even the right list to >> suggest this >> heresy or should I strap on the asbestos underwear and wander >> over to zopedev? > >I'll comment first on the multiline statement. Let me reinforce the >idea that The Zope Way is to separate presentation and logic. While we >should have some kind of object that better deals with logic, I don't >think there will be much sympathy for creating something that >looks like >ASP or PHP. > >Let me limit the conversation back to your subject line: <% vs. <!--# > >The latter was originally chosen to be like the dominant syntax at the >time (SSI) and to be "legal HTML". I think the latter has proven to be >total bunk, as almost no DTML Documents are valid (they get nearly >everything from the fragments of standard header and footer). > >What are some reasons to consider changing from the SSI syntax? > > o It's hideous, cumbersome, and everybody hates it > > o No tools support editing it > > o It isn't conformant with the direction of HTML > > o Any others? > >Let's evaluate the situation in light of these. > >It's Hideous >------------ > >Yes. > >Tool Support >------------ > >The SSI syntax just happens to enjoy nearly zero support out there. >Things like Netscape Composer, Dreamweaver, and Emacs HTML Mode just >can't be convinced to handle it nicely. > >Does anyone view this issue as important? > >Future of HTML >-------------- > >What role does SSI play in the future of HTML? Zero. Of course, >neither do any of the alternative syntaxes mentioned previously. > >Thus, I'd like to list some requirements for a future syntax: > >1) Within reach of "content managers". I won't budge on this one. I >think XSL will have a role in Zope, but *NOT* as a DTML replacement. > >2) Reasonably close to DTML. The current DTML accomplishes some level >of functionality. While some small amount might not be permitted in >some change, or might be permitted in a clumsy way, there should be a >reasonable match. > >3) Coherent with the HTML future. We have a choice: invent a syntax >and, one by one, support every web authoring tool. Alternatively, we >can stick to standards and wait for them to support it. > >Proposal >-------- > >_If_ these were the requirements, then I think a reasonable proposal is >XHTML: > > http://wdvl.com/Authoring/Languages/XML/XHTML/ > > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/#future > >XHTML reworks HTML as an XML-compliant language. Most imporantly, you >can extend it with new namespaces (like Zope instructions) without >breaking the DTD, as is the case with ColdFusion et al. > >Why? > >1) Alledgely it is the future of HTML. > >2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before >saving changes, and Zope can do smarter things with structured data on >the server. > >Why Not? > >1) A number of differences with HTML might drive people off. > >2) It isn't here yet. > >3) Zope syntax might not be mappable into XML. > >At any rate, I'd love for someone in the Zope community to >march off and >take a look at this, then make a proposal for how things should be >changed. As always, patches are accepted. :^) > >--Paul > >Paul Everitt Digital Creations >paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909 >----------------------------------------- >The Open Source Zope application server >http://www.zope.org/ >----------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > >(For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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[ANN: Zope2.0.0a2+ Win32 source patch]
by Anthony Pfrunder 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

BASE-RELEASE: Zope2_0_0a2-src.tgz RELEASE-DATE: 15-6-99 CONTACT: Anthony Pfrunder bruce_cop(a)bigfoot.com What is this? This zip file contains files and instructions for compiling Zope2 on Win32. This package features: * Automagic generation of *.dsp and *.dsw files for Microsoft Visual C 6.0. This is based on David Ascher's compile.py with heavy mods to allow recursive generation from the Setup files. [Thanks SquishDot guys!] * Support for dynamically loadable pyd's which can be used with any python binary * Independant of source code. This means that as python code is shifted to c and back the the *.dsp / *.dsw file's can be re-generated with a single stroke of "make" * A build environment which will generate a standalone directory structure for a zope console binary. This directory can be zipped up and moved to another machine without python and it will work out of the zip. Where to get? Email me at bruce_cop(a)bigfoot.com and I will email you the zopewin32.zip file. PS: It would be great if someone could place this into the distribution (my internet access is firewalled ,hence, no CVS access) Hope this helps some people, Anthony Pfrunder

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<% ... %> ?
by Jules Allen 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Has it been suggested that the SSI-type syntax of Zope isn't the most readable thing in the world? Is this even the right list to suggest this heresy or should I strap on the asbestos underwear and wander over to zopedev? I've used a bunch of Web-apps such Cold Fusion, PHP, ASP, etc., and the ones that have the cleanest organization to me seem to allow code blocks rather than single statements. So, to me, PHP and ASP are easier to maintain than Cold Fusion. Doesn't something like this - - - Cut Here - - - <% call "REQUEST.set('thistitle', title_or_id())" in "PARENTS[0].objectValues(['DTML Document', 'Folder'])" if "_.has_key('IsPublic') and IsPublic" if "thistitle == title_or_id()" %> <img src="/Images/activedoc.gif" width="8" height="8"><% var title_or_id %> <% else %> <img src="/Images/spacer.gif" width="8" height="8"><a href="<% var id url_quote %>"><% var title_or_id %></a> <% /if /if /in %> - - - Cut Here - - - seem easier to read than this? - - - Cut Here - - -     <img src="/Images/activedoc.gif" width="8" height="8">  <img src="/Images/spacer.gif" width="8" height="8"><a href=""></a>    - - - Cut Here - - - Yeah, easy for me to say "oh just go rewite the parser" and then walk away... Just a thought. -- Codito, ergo sum.

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Live Squishdot demo
by Squishdot 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Hi ya all, You wanna see what Squishdot can do/looks like? Bill Anderson has put up a Squishdot demo site. Its available here : http://www.libc.org/Community He also generously provided a test page containing the Squishdot default configuration (i.e. what it looks like right after installation). Its available here: http://www.libc.org/BlueHeaven Lastly, I just wanted to announce that Squishdot is now also available thru Zope's Contributed Products page at the following url : http://www.zope.org/Download/Contrib Cheers, Butch === Butch Landingin Squishdot maintainer http://members.tripod.com/squishdot/index.html squishdot(a)yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [Zope] Version 1.10.3b1 and ZServer
by Francois-Regis CHALAOUX 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

I confirm it's working as Steve told us. Thanks Steve, FR. >>> Steve Spicklemire <steve(a)estel.uindy.edu> 14/06/99 13:58:40 >>> Hmmm... so far I've tried Zope1.10.3b1/ZServer-1.0b1/ZPublisher-990415 Zope1.10.2/ZServer-1.0b1/ZPublisher-990415 Both of these work... sort of. The only problem I've found is that you can't authenticate with IE4. Netscape works great. I'm looking in to that.. for now I guess it's ZServer1.0a2. -steve >>>>> "Francois-Regis" == Francois-Regis CHALAOUX <fchalaou(a)strasbourg.synthelabo.fr> writes: Francois-Regis> Is it possible to use Zope Version 1.10.3b1 with Francois-Regis> Zserver? If yes, should I use the last ZPublisher Francois-Regis> coming with ZServer?

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berlin zope barbecue reminder
by webman 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

hello all, this is just a reminder for all those people interested in attending the zope barbecue taking place at beehive in berlin, germany this friday at 13:00 CET. if you plan to attend you must let us know by wednesday so that we can make sure we have enough to eat, and if you're a vegetarian, etc. thank you to all those who have already let us know that you'll be coming. we look forward to meeting you all, especially those coming from other cities such as hannover. happy zoping! webman (resident burger flipper) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- webman | _ beehive GmbH | ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) berlin, Germany | - against HTML email X http://www.beehive.de | & vcards / \

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RE: [Zope] 'Cannot Locate' errors from Bobo using pcgi...
by Michel Pelletier 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Tony McDonald [mailto:tony.mcdonald@ncl.ac.uk] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 5:40 AM > To: Zope List > Cc: Alex Rice > Subject: Re: [Zope] 'Cannot Locate' errors from Bobo using pcgi... > > > At 1:14 pm -0600 13/6/99, Alex Rice wrote: > >On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:44:23 +0100, > >"Tony McDonald" <tony.mcdonald(a)ncl.ac.uk> said: > > > >Tony> Bobo has encountered a problem publishing your object. > >Tony> Cannot locate object at: http://server.net/wip/squishdo > > > > > >Unfortunately, this is normal. If you search the mailing > list archives, > >you'll see the folks from DC agreed that there really should > be hooks so > >Publisher can use standard_error_message or something nice instead of > >the Bobo traceback. Maybe that will show up in Zope2? > > > > cheers Alex, but Ouch!! ... that's nasty. > DC guys: Is there a fix for Zope1.10 that I can apply whilst waiting > for Zope2? (it *is* fixed in Zope2 isn't it?) Uhhmm... no. This problem is a bit more complex than it sounds. First off, a 'Not Found' error (404) comes about because what you're looking for is not in the object database, thus, the error is not raised *in* the object database, but in ZPublisher, the ORB (unlike, for example, a DTML error). Due to the (very intentional) modularity of ZPublisher, ZPublisher can't just assume that there is a standard_error_message object in the object database (you can use ZPublisher by itself without Zope) so imagine it raising a 404, looking for standard_error_message, which raises a 404 which... Furthermore, ZPublisher is protocol independent. If you wanted to write, say, an NNTP protocol extension to ZPublisher, you could publish your objects as newsgroups and items (sick!). Or IMAP, or XML-RPC (which Eric Kidd is working on as we speak) or CORBA, or whatever, pick your protocol. The problem is, standard_error_message doesn't make any sense in those contexts, or maybe it does? Jim has presented a proposal for fixing this, and a few other things about our error model, for example, if you impliment error handling in the ORB like his proposal, it will no longer be necesary for the object database to grab its own errors, it can just let them float up to the ORB and then use the new method to find and call standard_error_message. This could be a 2.0 feature, if we can find the resources (I beg of you to volunteer ;). -Michel > tone. > ------ > Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project > The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888 > Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2 > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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Zope 2.0.0a2 funny stuff
by Phil Harris 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Hmm Hi all I've just installed and setup Zope 2.0.0a2 and am getting a weird error message: Server Error: exceptions.OSError, [Errno 13] Permission denied: file: /root/Zope-2.0.0a2-src/ZServer/httpServer.py line: 228 Line 228 of that file is: env['PATH_TRANSLATED']=os.path.normpath(os.path.join(os.getcwd(),env['PATH_I NFO'])) Any ideas? TIA Phil phil(a)philh.org

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