June 1999 - Zope - Zope lists

RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Chris Petrilli 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

> here here; the current zope dtml syntax is really a nightmare. I would I don't disagree that the current syntax is quite baroque in the mode that it is used by many people for many projects---many times because there is no other option. However... > be even more extreme and as has been suggested elsewhere > would use some > open and close delimiters to contain arbitrary python. Blah, no this again violates the paradigm that we are trying to push, which is that you keep your logic code as much out of your presentation code as possible. By allowing this inclusion, I think you're only reverting to the ASP model, which is a serious step backwards. One might even argue that the painfulness of the current syntax encourages people not to write much in DTML :-) Unfortunately, we've not done a great job of giving them something else to use. This *will* change very soon I hope. The concept of call is that it will be used to do some very basic things, like:  You wouldn't want to implement approveEntry in DTML. At least not if it was more than a couple lines of code. I hope what I'm saying makes sense, because I think a lot of people are still approaching Zope from the mindset of CGI, PHP, ASP, etc., where you have code, logic and presentation all mingled in the same file. That's not what Zope is designed to encourage, just the reverse... we want you to seperate it as much as possible, because then you can gain re-use of data AND logic. Chris

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Alexander Staubo 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

Oops, my line <var>title_or_id</var><html:br> would of course be <var>title_or_id</var><html:br/> Again, this is something of a headache. And we haven't even mentioned SQL Methods yet. (And sorry about the text wrapping. It shouldn't so hard to figure out though.) -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >-----Original Message----- >From: Alexander Staubo [mailto:alex@mop.no] >Sent: 11. juni 1999 23:27 >To: 'Zope Mailing List (E-mail)' >Subject: RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ? > > >Very lucid and intelligent discussion, Paul. As an eager fan >of XML, I second the idea to push XHTML as the next-generation >Zope DTML syntax. > >If this is the goal, the "tag" syntax currently used by Zope >can be preserved, with some modifications. > >I've jotted down a few examples of how such a modified syntax >might look, at least as I see it. At least this is one >possible angle. (Note: Best read in a monospaced font.) > > XML syntax:: Equivalent legacy syntax:: > > <zope:tree expr="PARENTS[-1]">  > ... stuff ... ... stuff ... > </zope:tree>  > > <zope:var expr="id()"/>  > > <zope:var obj="standard_html_header"/>  > > <zope:var>index_html</zope:var>  > >For non-XMLists, notice the use of the slash ("/") character >to close up empty elements. Also note how all parameters to a >tag are wrapped in true attributes. Something like <var "foo"> >simply isn't permitted. > >Here's a sample of specifying a default namespace, so you that >you use Zope tags without qualifying them with the "zope" >namespace. Notice how this -- if it is to be done cleanly -- >requires that you prefix HTML tags with the "html" namespace. >I have not decided whether this is entirely necessary, since >Zope will preprocess the DTML and in this case, would have to >remote the "html:" prefix anyway. > > <in xmlns="http://www.zope.org/schema/1.0" >expr="objectValues('DTML Document')"> > <var>title_or_id</var><html:br> > </in> > >Unfortunately, the idea that you can write something like <var >standard_html_header> is rescinded by XML, unless ASP-like >"blocks" of code as Jules Allen proposes can be included. >Given the current syntax I can't conceive of a way that this >can be done elegantly -- the minute we step into >"ASP-like"-ness, we're in the realm of "defining a new >language". While Jules' example syntax would certainly work on >a technical level, the question is, as much as we abhor the >current SSI syntax, do we really want to become more like ASP? > >-- >Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ >"`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over >his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" > >--Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >>-----Original Message----- >>From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On >Behalf Of Paul >>Everitt >>Sent: 11. juni 1999 20:09 >>To: 'Jules Allen'; zope(a)zope.org >>Subject: RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ? >> >> >> >>Jules wrote: >>> Has it been suggested that the SSI-type syntax of Zope >isn't the most >>> readable thing in the world? Is this even the right list to >>> suggest this >>> heresy or should I strap on the asbestos underwear and wander >>> over to zopedev? >> >>I'll comment first on the multiline statement. Let me reinforce the >>idea that The Zope Way is to separate presentation and logic. > While we >>should have some kind of object that better deals with logic, I don't >>think there will be much sympathy for creating something that >>looks like >>ASP or PHP. >> >>Let me limit the conversation back to your subject line: <% vs. <!--# >> >>The latter was originally chosen to be like the dominant syntax at the >>time (SSI) and to be "legal HTML". I think the latter has >proven to be >>total bunk, as almost no DTML Documents are valid (they get nearly >>everything from the fragments of standard header and footer). >> >>What are some reasons to consider changing from the SSI syntax? >> >> o It's hideous, cumbersome, and everybody hates it >> >> o No tools support editing it >> >> o It isn't conformant with the direction of HTML >> >> o Any others? >> >>Let's evaluate the situation in light of these. >> >>It's Hideous >>------------ >> >>Yes. >> >>Tool Support >>------------ >> >>The SSI syntax just happens to enjoy nearly zero support out there. >>Things like Netscape Composer, Dreamweaver, and Emacs HTML Mode just >>can't be convinced to handle it nicely. >> >>Does anyone view this issue as important? >> >>Future of HTML >>-------------- >> >>What role does SSI play in the future of HTML? Zero. Of course, >>neither do any of the alternative syntaxes mentioned previously. >> >>Thus, I'd like to list some requirements for a future syntax: >> >>1) Within reach of "content managers". I won't budge on this one. I >>think XSL will have a role in Zope, but *NOT* as a DTML replacement. >> >>2) Reasonably close to DTML. The current DTML accomplishes some level >>of functionality. While some small amount might not be permitted in >>some change, or might be permitted in a clumsy way, there should be a >>reasonable match. >> >>3) Coherent with the HTML future. We have a choice: invent a syntax >>and, one by one, support every web authoring tool. Alternatively, we >>can stick to standards and wait for them to support it. >> >>Proposal >>-------- >> >>_If_ these were the requirements, then I think a reasonable >proposal is >>XHTML: >> >> http://wdvl.com/Authoring/Languages/XML/XHTML/ >> >> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/#future >> >>XHTML reworks HTML as an XML-compliant language. Most imporantly, you >>can extend it with new namespaces (like Zope instructions) without >>breaking the DTD, as is the case with ColdFusion et al. >> >>Why? >> >>1) Alledgely it is the future of HTML. >> >>2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before >>saving changes, and Zope can do smarter things with structured data on >>the server. >> >>Why Not? >> >>1) A number of differences with HTML might drive people off. >> >>2) It isn't here yet. >> >>3) Zope syntax might not be mappable into XML. >> >>At any rate, I'd love for someone in the Zope community to >>march off and >>take a look at this, then make a proposal for how things should be >>changed. As always, patches are accepted. :^) >> >>--Paul >> >>Paul Everitt Digital Creations >>paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909 >>----------------------------------------- >>The Open Source Zope application server >>http://www.zope.org/ >>----------------------------------------- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >>http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope >> >>(For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >>zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >> >

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Authorization required problem with Squishdot sites
by Butch Landingin 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

Oh-oh. Squishdot maintainer reporting a Squishdot bug :(. I had this bug report from A.M. Kuchling a day or two ago about Squishdot not allowing anonymous access and I suggested updating the root folder security privileges to set anonymous users the access contents privilege. It did'nt work for him then. I have since started getting it myself and I'm *stymied*. I also added the query tinytable data privilege set for anonymous users as well -- it is still happening. Is it only me (and possibly Andrew) who are getting this problem? Andrew, did you ever figure this one out? stymied-and-confusedly-yours, Butch Landingin butchland(a)yahoo.com P.S. when you cancel the authorization challenge, it displays this error message : You are not authorized to access box_url. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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FW: URGENT: Can't start up zope.
by Michel Pelletier 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Pelletier > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:42 PM > To: 'djay(a)lucent.com'; zope(a)zope.org > Cc: Support > Subject: RE: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dylan Jay [mailto:djay@cse.unsw.edu.au] > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:29 PM > > To: zope(a)zope.org > > Cc: support(a)digicool.com > > Subject: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > > > > I was doing some external method work on our production > > server (silly boy) > > and something went very wrong. Every time I start zope it > > will crash. This > > is both as an NT service and using ZHTTPServer. ZHTTPServer > > gives a stack > > dump that mentions initializing products and factories and stuff > > (unfortunatly my office has a power outage currently so I > > can't the dump > > or the data.bbb until 5 hours or so). Using the bbb.py it reports no > > corruptions so I can only presume the database contains some > > configurations that screws up zope. To make matters worse our > > expensive > > backup solution doesn't seem to have backed up data.bbb. > > > > Can you send us this traceback? Did a power outage occour > while the server was running? Did the machine not get shut > down properly and this this problem happened? Or did it just > happen after a clean shutdown (ie, what was the state of the > server before coming up the first time with this error). > > -Michel > > > What I need to know are > > a) What the likely causes of a something like I'm describing? > > I realize I > > havn't given much to go on, but ANY information you can give > > me at this > > point would very very appreciated. > > b) What tools do I need to modify the data.bbb. I can convert > > it xml ok > > but it seems there's no way to convert it back. Is there any > > tool where I > > can just roll back the last few transactions? (This may not > > work actually > > as it was probably the external method that did the damage). > > > > In case its relevent I guess I should include some detail of > > the external > > method I was working on. It was a method to determine if a user had > > permission to view an object. It looked at a users roles > and the roles > > for the view permission. It would recurse with the parent if > > the object > > aquired roles. > > > > Thanks in advance for any ideas anyone has. > > > > > > > > Dylan. > > djay(a)lucent.com > > >

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RE: URGENT: Can't start up zope.
by Michel Pelletier 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dylan Jay [mailto:djay@cse.unsw.edu.au] > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:29 PM > To: zope(a)zope.org > Cc: support(a)digicool.com > Subject: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > I was doing some external method work on our production > server (silly boy) > and something went very wrong. Every time I start zope it > will crash. This > is both as an NT service and using ZHTTPServer. ZHTTPServer > gives a stack > dump that mentions initializing products and factories and stuff > (unfortunatly my office has a power outage currently so I > can't the dump > or the data.bbb until 5 hours or so). Using the bbb.py it reports no > corruptions so I can only presume the database contains some > configurations that screws up zope. To make matters worse our > expensive > backup solution doesn't seem to have backed up data.bbb. > Can you send us this traceback? Did a power outage occour while the server was running? Did the machine not get shut down properly and this this problem happened? Or did it just happen after a clean shutdown (ie, what was the state of the server before coming up the first time with this error). -Michel > What I need to know are > a) What the likely causes of a something like I'm describing? > I realize I > havn't given much to go on, but ANY information you can give > me at this > point would very very appreciated. > b) What tools do I need to modify the data.bbb. I can convert > it xml ok > but it seems there's no way to convert it back. Is there any > tool where I > can just roll back the last few transactions? (This may not > work actually > as it was probably the external method that did the damage). > > In case its relevent I guess I should include some detail of > the external > method I was working on. It was a method to determine if a user had > permission to view an object. It looked at a users roles and the roles > for the view permission. It would recurse with the parent if > the object > aquired roles. > > Thanks in advance for any ideas anyone has. > > > > Dylan. > djay(a)lucent.com >

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URGENT: Can't start up zope.
by Dylan Jay 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

I was doing some external method work on our production server (silly boy) and something went very wrong. Every time I start zope it will crash. This is both as an NT service and using ZHTTPServer. ZHTTPServer gives a stack dump that mentions initializing products and factories and stuff (unfortunatly my office has a power outage currently so I can't the dump or the data.bbb until 5 hours or so). Using the bbb.py it reports no corruptions so I can only presume the database contains some configurations that screws up zope. To make matters worse our expensive backup solution doesn't seem to have backed up data.bbb. What I need to know are a) What the likely causes of a something like I'm describing? I realize I havn't given much to go on, but ANY information you can give me at this point would very very appreciated. b) What tools do I need to modify the data.bbb. I can convert it xml ok but it seems there's no way to convert it back. Is there any tool where I can just roll back the last few transactions? (This may not work actually as it was probably the external method that did the damage). In case its relevent I guess I should include some detail of the external method I was working on. It was a method to determine if a user had permission to view an object. It looked at a users roles and the roles for the view permission. It would recurse with the parent if the object aquired roles. Thanks in advance for any ideas anyone has. Dylan. djay(a)lucent.com

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RE: [Zope] RE: What method do I use to check access? (and how do I do 'getitem' in an external method?)
by Jay, Dylan 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

> -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Clinton Shaw III [mailto:shawh@sths.org] > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 05:32 > To: Jay, Dylan > Cc: 'zope(a)zope.org' > Subject: RE: [Zope] RE: What method do I use to check access? (and how > do I do 'getitem' in an external method?) > > > On Mon, 07 Jun 1999, Jay, Dylan wrote: > <snip> > > > > Ok, I'm still working on the problem. I've come upon a snag > however. If I > > pass in SomeObject above I will get an "You are not > authorized to access > > SomeObject" error. So instead I need to pass in the object > id and get the > > object myself. However I have had no luck working out how > to do this. What I > > need is the getitem method in an external method. Searching > through all the > > code as left me none the wiser. > > > > Here's the closest I have. > > > > from AccessControl.Permission import Permission > > > > def hasPermission(self, pname, objName, AUTHENTICATED_USER): > > SomeObject = self.__getitem__(objName) > > try this. > SomeObject = eval('self.'+pname) > > However, indications from the above are that it might give an > error; if so, can be > much easier.... > try: > SomeObject = eval('self.'+pname) > except: > # He ain't allowed to do that > else: > # He is allowed to do that > > And not have to fight with any permissions stuff. Don't think that will ever work because there is NO validation of security inside an external method. This might work if it was done in dtml and there was a way of catching exceptions. However I believe this would be an expensive way of doing it if evaluating the object was expensive.

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docs on TinyTables
by Daniel M. Drucker 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

Where can one find documentation on using TinyTables?

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Chris Petrilli 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

> Has it been suggested that the SSI-type syntax of Zope isn't the most > readable thing in the world? Is this even the right list to > suggest this > heresy or should I strap on the asbestos underwear and wander > over to zopedev? Well, it encourages the violation of seperation of data, logic and presentation. It's necessary to understand that DTML is really more of a REPORTING language, not a scripting language... so if you're writing huge things that are like this, then in many cases you need to consider breaking them apaart. Having said that, the current "leap" from DTML to External Methods is too great, and so there's been some talk of a Script object---this i think would be more useful than the changes to the syntax. Also, <% %> is totally invalid HTML and XML :-) > Yeah, easy for me to say "oh just go rewite the parser" and > then walk away... The parser isn't that hard to understand :-) Once you understand it! Chris

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Re: >The server is down!
by CBraescu 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

>The server is down! :-(.... Why on earth did I place my website on that >server? Anybody a place where I can put it? If possible I would like to >move the site to there. Dear Tom, After dealing for some time with excelent web hoster Intercomm (www.icom.com) now we find an even better option: Cubesoft (www.csoft.net) We are now busy building a website powered by Apache/mySQL/Zope/Python and they are VERY permisive on that! You should check them and, if you like what you find, talk to Julien (julien(a)csoft.net) and don't forget to say I point you to Cubesoft (I don't earn anything but I want him to see I spread the word, they are realy good). Best regards, Catalin Braescu Coltronix www.coltronix.com

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