May 2000 - Zope - Zope lists

absolute_url() question
by Andy McKay 06 May '00

06 May '00

Hi, So I have a Product inheriting from a DTML Document (its a particular kind of web page). But when I call absolute_url() I get my.website.com/<string>. Any ideas how to fix this? TIA.

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How to use image file without image objects
by Sudhir Kumar 06 May '00

06 May '00

How do I refer to image file in dtml documents without creating image objects. For example, 1. setting the background. 2. Displaying pictures depending on the name for a large group of people. Thanks, -- sudhir

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Re: [Zope] comparision between zope and other technologies
by brian smith 06 May '00

06 May '00

A very compelling solution, although not as well publicized, that we are considering is the ArsDigita Community System, which is an open source product build in tcl that sits on a foundation of AOLServer and Oracle. They (arsdigita.com) have recently released a version for Apache, and they are working on a pure Java version that will only require a Unix os and Oracle. Also, I think there is a version for PostgreSQL (sp?). This company has grown from a couple of folks to many in offices around the world, and this is their toolkit they use for quire a few high-profile customers, including AOL themselves. Just one more to consider. Brian

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zCatalog
by Markus Hochreiter 06 May '00

06 May '00

Hi, how can I update a ZCatalog programmatically?? <dtml-with Catalog> <dtml-call reindex_catalog> </dtml-with>????? thanks mex

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Fwd: Re: [Zope] Comments? To create products with Python or with ZClasses
by Joachim Werner 06 May '00

06 May '00

> > I was under the impression that FTP'ing into the a ZClass isn't supported > > at the moment (I've tried it and it doesn't work still). I tested. You can ftp into the product the ZClass is in, but the ZClass itself is just listed as a "file" so you can't dig deeper. Same with WebDAV. Joachim.

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Zope/DTML question
by aztec Tsai 06 May '00

06 May '00

hi all I have a question about DTML & Zope is there table/list of dtml-call object/function build-in with Zope ?? I had "Zope Document Template Markup Language Reference" , "Zope Content Manager's Guide" , "Zope Developer's Guide" on hand.. but seems I didn't see such them.... Aztec

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Docs in the PTK
by Jason Spisak 05 May '00

05 May '00

DC and Zopists, I have been trying to find the HTMLgendoc.py tool that you used to generate the documentation in the PTK. Where can I get that? I tried Object Domain systems site, but I don't see it. I tried using gendoc, but it took a header I tried. May I say it is fabulous stuff. Why don't you run that tool on the entire Zope codebase? Maybe you have and it's coming with 2.2. :) All my best, -- Jason Spisak 444(a)hiretechs.com

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Re: [Zope] comparision between zope and other technologies
by Hung Jung Lu 05 May '00

05 May '00

About a month ago I had an e-mail exchange with Jimmie Houchin on the comparison between Zope and Enhydra. Since I have his permission, I will repost his message here. Java is an OK language. But it's designed by the corporate, for the corporate. Hung Jung ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello, I have kept an eye on both Enhydra and Zope for the last year or so, Zope a little longer. Enhydra does have some interesting stuff that Zope does not yet. Enhydra Director which is coming out sometime will bring increased scalability to Enhydra. XMLC does a good job of separating interface from logic. In the end I just unsubscribed from the Enhydra list and am proceeding full speed with Zope. Zope has got a great user community. Enhydra's is much smaller and quieter. I think both Lutris and Digital Creations are good companies. I don't get too excited about Java. I'll use it if I have to, not because I want to. Python I use because I want to. Enhydra/Java to me seems to heavy and too engineered which makes it overly complex for web development. Zope can take a while to learn, but once you understand it, I believe it will make your website development much easier and powerful. After you learn Enhydra, you still have to deal with the complexity of Enhydra/Java. Zope comes with a much richer set of user community functionality. Zope is stronger in delegating responsibilities. I feel that Zope's framework is more ready to plugin into for many types of sites. Enhydra provides a basic set of tools and then you are on your own. If I was to use Enhydra I would have to write many of the functions Zope brings. Browse Enhydra's site and you see very little user contributed material. Browse Zope's and their is much. Two completely different types of communities. Zope's main weakness is performance/scalability. The community is aware of it and so is Digital Creations. Digital Creations has ZEO available commercially for those who need and can afford it. I think Python will improve performance. I think Zope will improve in performance. Hardware continually improves in performance. Currently this is my recipe for a high performing Zope site. "Not tested. Just my theory." Dual processor Zope machine. OS and Apache on one processor. Zope on the other processor. OS, Apache and static content, (images, binaries, etc.) on one hard drive (RAID array, etc.) Zope, ZODB on another hard drive (RAID array, etc.) The above can even be split into two machines if desired allowing for lots of memory for caching content. RDBMS machine Multi-processor machine and high quality RDBMS. Nice hard drive RAID array. With processors reaching 1 ghz, lots of ram, and fast hard drives, I believe a good setup like above can serve a pretty big site. If your site needs more than the above can offer, get ZEO and another machine for another Zope process to plug into your website. The above is probably what I will start out with when I've developed my site. I will be getting my development machine at home in a couple of weeks and then it's off to the races. I look forward to being a contributing member to the Zope community. These are just my personal opinions. I know you emailed me directly, but this message is free to share if you wish. Jimmie Houchin Hung Jung Lu wrote: > >Hi, > >I read some of your e-mails in the Enhydra mailing list. >You seem to be knowledgeable in both. :) > >I would like a brief description of the differences between >Enhydra and Zope. Enhydra seems to have a smaller group of >developers. Given my bad past experience with Java, I am >really biased against Java. :) But I would like a more >impartial opinion. My experience in Java is that it has >too many syntax details you need to worry about before >you can do something... development time is a lot slower >than Python. Python's running-also-means-compiling model >is really neat: you can have the server program running, >modify part of its codes and reload the module dynamically >without stopping the main program. When I was programming >in Java, it was very frustrating that you had to implement >all the features of an interface before you can get a >feedback... Python gives you immediate feedback right away. >Well, Java needs an IDE, and at the time I was programming >in Java, Visual Cafe was still really really bad. I would >say jumping into Java's bandwagon was a huge mistake on >the part of previous company I was working for, and as a >result the company had to cancel our Java projects and it >wasted about two years development time at an average of >3 programmers. The previous place I worked for was a >multimedia company, and in that circle many companies jumped >onto Java but most have had non-rewarding experience. And >lately I just feel like Java hype is really subsiding. The >overhead of starting to write something is Java is just >too heavy. > >I don't know anything in Enhydra. But in Zope, there is >minimal coding in Python. Matter of fact, for simple sites >there is almost no need for traditional programming. The >basic dynamic functionalities are embedded inside the >HTML-like documents. > >Here is a message from the Zope mailing list. > >tony rossignol <tony-(a)ep.newtimes.com> wrote: >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/zope/?start=26002 > > After looking at both Zope and Enhydra I concluded for my purposes that > > they really fit into two very different realms. Both tools > > (applications, application interfaces, whatever you want to call them) > > fit the bill for developing web applications. Both tools provide for > > HTML/XML markup to easily integrate with web designers. > > > > Enhydra deviates from here to be more consultant/development driven with > > its class file delivery/deployment method. Where as Zope continues, it > > provides an interactive management model, where the web designer can > > update an application and extent it without having to have development > > support, there is no compile phase that needs to be done before > > deployment. > > > > I believe it depends on what your perspective; If you're more > > development centric, Enhydra works great. If you have to interface > > developers and designers on a an ongoing basis and want to deligate more > > control to designers Zope is the winner. > > > > Well thats my 2 cents. > >Anyway, I would like some more impartial opinion, since myself >is kind of biased. :) Any comment would be greatly appreciated. > >I think that it is kind of surprising that neither in the >Zope mailing list nor in the Enhydra mailing list there is >enough comparison/comments on each other. > >Do you think corporates out there are still have the image of >Java as a superior language? Do you think Java is there to stay, >or is it running into an uncertain future, now? Right now I am >developing in Zope, but I would not mind going Java, as long >as it pleases outside venture capitalists. :) > >regards, > >Hung Jung ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Re: [Zope] Comments? To create products with Python or with ZClasses
by Simon Michael 05 May '00

05 May '00

"Jason Spisak" <444(a)hiretechs.com> writes: > <snip wonderful contribution to start a discussion> ditto, thanks Kevin. > > The single biggest reason that I don't develop my products in > > Python is the fact that you need to restart Zope to test your > > changes. > > I there any other was besides the pdb to test you products without > restarting zope? I really think that'd be worth me trying. I wouldn't > know where to start though. From what I know, Python modules can just use > the "reload" command. Why doesn't Zope have that? I tried calling this at the zserver monitor prompt recently, with no apparent effect. -Simon

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Comments? To create products with Python or with ZClasses
by Kevin Dangoor 05 May '00

05 May '00

Hi, Please correct me if any assumptions in here are wrong. (You may not agree with my conclusions, but as long as my assumptions are correct, I'm happy. :) Any other feedback is also welcomed, of course. This document is also here: http://www.zope.org/Members/tazzzzz/PythonOrZClass Kevin http://www.byproducts.com - Humor and Novelties Purpose of this document May 5, 2000. Please send feedback! Zope offers two distinctly different development "environments": Python Products, and built through the web ZClasses. Though you can certainly use both in a single project, you will likely turn to one or the other as a first step when approaching a new problem. I get the feeling that the folks at DC turn to Python first, whereas I turn to ZClasses. This document doesn't go into any background about what a ZClass or Python Product is... I think other docs do that well enough. For the sake of brevity, I'll refer to Python Products as "PyProds". Speed I believe that PyProds and ZClasses are roughly the same in terms of speed of execution. ZClasses have some wrapper stuff around them, but I don't think there is much (if any) extra code that needs to be executed when calling ZClass methods. Development Tools PyProds are clearly at an advantage in terms of development tools. Creating ZClasses and propertysheets, and adding views and methods to a ZClass are certainly very user friendly processes. However, editing code in a textarea has some definite drawbacks. Since PyProds reside in the filesystem, it is very easy to use your favorite editor, CVS, grep and other tools when working with your code. ZClasses will be getting help down the line in the form of the ZopeStudio Mozilla app. Currently, you can edit your code using your favorite editor if it supports FTP. It also seems possible to create some simple tools that allow you to edit your ZClass code locally, store it in CVS, and send the changes through via XML-RPC or ZClient. Flexibility PyProds win in the flexibility department as well. In order to keep evil people from gaining access to your box through your website, through the web components can only do a subset of what Python can do. For example, you can't open files in DTML or a PythonMethod. PyProds live in the file system, and therefore have access to all Python and Zope services. It is also likely to be a lot faster to create a relatively complex object hierarchy in Python than it would be to build it up through the web. A very important flexibility issue with ZClasses is that once you've created the ZClass, there is no guaranteed way to change the base classes. There are apparently some really deep issues behind this. To give yourself the ability to change base classes later on, it is probably wise to create a Python base class for your ZClass and have that class inherit from the appropriate other classes. Then, you can just change that little bit of Python in order to add or remove a base class. This has the added benefit that you can easily make minor additions to your ZClass that would not be possible through the web (such as writing a custom object traversal handler). Ease of Programming Once you get into the swing of it, ZClasses are quite easy. Writing complicated DTML Methods is not necessarily a fun thing, but PythonMethods give you a way to avoid complicated DTML and still develop through the web. The single biggest reason that I don't develop my products in Python is the fact that you need to restart Zope to test your changes. For that reason, it is probably best to test your classes directly from the Python interpreter rather than through Zope. This allows you to see the changes much more quickly. Once you think your classes are basically working, you can fire up Zope and try it from the web. While that method certainly will get the job done, I find programming with ZClasses to be a nice fast process. You can have two browser windows going, one with the code and one where you're testing the code. The process of making a change and trying it out is very fast. I also find that Versions are very nice for minor bug repair on a production system. Conclusions Python is a great language, but I think I'll stick to ZClasses for the bulk of my web development. They really are quite fast and easy, and PythonMethods give you the benefit of using a nice, clean language for your logic as well. I am going to start using Python base classes for my ZClasses though. It is really a very small amount of work to create them, and the benefits are significant: you can easily change base classes and create functionality that is otherwise impossible through the web.

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